Holes in patches?

[DEJ]

I have a question about holes in patches! I routinely pick up my shot patches while target shooting for inspection and often they have burnt holes in them. Is this normal? I seem to recall reading somewhere that this is caused by a loose ball/patch fit which allows blow by and may cause barrel erosion. Now, if I blow the charge with one of those Co2 dischargers (very handy) there are no cuts in the patch and its as good as new. Load is .495 RB over .010 patch and 70 grs FFFg and have tried .015 patches with same result. Thanks in advance!

DEJ

 

Usually holes in patches are due to either too hot charge or too thin patch, but I suspect yours may be due to material---what material are you using? .010 is pretty thin, too, but you said you had holes with .015....I had trouble with holes using "cleaning patch flannel" and they went away with tougher material....

 

[Stumpkiller]

It's not normal.

With lighter loads, I do occasionally shoot 0.010" for ease of loading (but that's with a 0.490" ball). Wet patches should not burn through. Overly "dry" lubed patches may, as may pre-lubed grease type that has dried out. If it's burning through, change something until it doesn't. (i.e. Lube, lube quanity, patch thickness or material, ball diameter, smoothness of bore, etc.)

 

[jim gray]

It could also be caused by too little patch lube or a patch that's too thin. Try more lube first and if that doesn't help you should try thicker patches. Do you have pics of the patches?

If the patch & ball combination doesn't fit tightly enough, you should be able to tell when you load it.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Here's a sampling of patches fired a week after treating in moose milk and allowed to dry two days flat, and then around a ball in a ball block. The 0.010" patch was charred but fully intact.

Not bad for "dry" patches. All scanned barrel contact side showing.

 

[DEJ]

Mike,
I'm using the pre-lubed Ox-Yoke originals! No pictures here with me! Lots more experimenting to do which is half the fun!

DEJ

 

[Landngroove]

What are you using for patch material, and what are you using for a patch lube? The patch material should have a tight weave to it. Maybe your lube is not doing it's job? I have been using T/C .015" cotton patches, and T/C pillow ticking patches for years, and have had good results with them. There are also Irish linnen patches that work well. A .495 round ball with a .015" patch, in a .50 caliber should have a tight fit, tight enough so that would not cause patch burnout/blowout. Try another lube, or put a patch over your powder charge, then load your patched round ball. Think of the fun you will have solving this problem!

 

DEJ

I had the same problem when I was using the OX Yoke prelubed patchs. I have since changed to dry patchs using spit for lube. No more holes. I can almost reuse them. I also tried some TC 13 as a lube with the same good results. In addition my groups improved with both the spit and the TC 13 over the prelube. Try it

Rio

 

[BLAHMAN]

Why don't you try shooting 70 grains of ff? What kind of gun are you shooting, might have a rough spot in the bore.

 

[cayugad]

If you are getting good accuracy with the current load, then I would try putting a wonderwad between the powder charge and the patched ball. Since you said when you push the charge out with a CO2 system and the patch is not damaged, I do not think it is a burr in the barrel.

It sounds like the lube might not be protecting, or the power your shooting is too hot for that thin of a patch. I have a rifle that was doing the same thing. I stuck a wonderwad between the power and patch and that solved the problem.

 

[jim gray]

If all else fails wonder wads should prevent your patches from burning through, as long as their burning and not being cut by the rifling.

 

[BLAHMAN]

I knew a fella that had a GPR in a 54. He couldn't hit anything with it. We finnally observed his patches (all tore up) and discovered the barrel was as rough as a cob!

We stroked the barrel with steel wool and reduced his powder charge to something more managable. Again, he was shooting 100 grains of 3f. We convinced him he to try 2f at about 70 grains. Viola!!! he started to get better accuracy and the recoil was more reduced!

That's why I wonder why you are using 3f. It's a 50 caliber, and 3f burns quicker (I am right aren't I?) and produces more pressure. I'll bet if you switched 2f for 3f you may not be burning through your patches.


Why do people shoot 3f in large caliber guns anyway? (Think I'll post that for a question on the forum)

 

[roundball]

I knew a fella that had a GPR in a 54. He couldn't hit anything with it. We finnally observed his patches (all tore up) and discovered the barrel was as rough as a cob!

We stroked the barrel with steel wool and reduced his powder charge to something more managable. Again, he was shooting 100 grains of 3f. We convinced him he to try 2f at about 70 grains. Viola!!! he started to get better accuracy and the recoil was more reduced!

That's why I wonder why you are using 3f. It's a 50 caliber, and 3f burns quicker (I am right aren't I?) and produces more pressure. I'll bet if you switched 2f for 3f you may not be burning through your patches.


Why do people shoot 3f in large caliber guns anyway? (Think I'll post that for a question on the forum)

The reason I use Goex 3F in everything I can is because it's faster and produces less fouling...all RB target and hunting loads in .45/.50/.54cal are 3F for me...I use 2F in the .58/.62cals

 

[Howard]

Pillow ticking is good patch material. I've heard that Irish linen is even better.

 

[MikeChapin]

I have a Sante Fe that had that problem. I use spit for lube. All loads were 50 grains FFFg.

With .013-.015 pillow ticking about half the patches would be blown to confetti. These patches would almost thumb start. These would stay together if I switched to 50 grains 2F but I use 3F in everything else so I really did not want to use it.

I went to some denim I use in other rifles. It stayed together but was a bear to load.

I then tried Ox-Yoke ticking in .018. It loaded without having to pound it in and held together through all the testing. I fired five shots at 100 yards offhand using 70 grains and the patches still stayed together and all the shots were on the target.

I did the same thing with my .36 using 40 grains of 3F. I shot the thing for years with 30 gr. and a .018 patch. Now it wants to shoot 40 grains but blows up the pillow ticking. I switched to light denim (.020-.022). Now it will keep most in the black on a 6 bull at 50 yards offhand. The ones that aren't in the black are all me.

It just takes a little time and experimentation. I tend to go with a smaller ball/ thicker patch combination. Your milage may vary.

 

[cayugad]

I knew a fella that had a GPR in a 54. He couldn't hit anything with it. We finnally observed his patches (all tore up) and discovered the barrel was as rough as a cob!

We stroked the barrel with steel wool and reduced his powder charge to something more managable. Again, he was shooting 100 grains of 3f. We convinced him he to try 2f at about 70 grains. Viola!!! he started to get better accuracy and the recoil was more reduced!

That's why I wonder why you are using 3f. It's a 50 caliber, and 3f burns quicker (I am right aren't I?) and produces more pressure. I'll bet if you switched 2f for 3f you may not be burning through your patches.


Why do people shoot 3f in large caliber guns anyway? (Think I'll post that for a question on the forum)

I shoot Goex 3f in my .50 calibers because the powder burns faster, fowls less, and the accuracy is excellent. I have not the problem with the burning patches I admit. In fact in my .50 caliber T/C Hawkins I shoot 90 grains of 3f and a patched roundball and the accuracy is outstanding.

I do shoot 2f in some of the .54 calibers and larger, but have shot 3f in them also with excellent results.

I always thought a .50 caliber was a 3f/2f kind of rifle. Anything larger was a give it a try and see what you think kind of rifle. In the modern black powder rifles all I ever shoot is Goex 3f.

I realize many people feel 2f is the right choice. It just seems it is a matter of preference by the shooter. As long as we shoot. ::

 

[DEJ]

Blahman,
I'm shooting a TVM Late Lancaster and getting really good accuracy for this load. When I blow the charge with the Co2 discharger I'm not getting any cuts in the patches and so don't think it could be a rough barrel problem. I use FFFg in my .457 Ruger Old Army and also to prime the .50 cal. Just like to keep some standardization going! Lots of good advice and ideas from everyone-Can't wait to get home and give it all a try. Thanks!

DEJ

 

[Birddog6]

If you have good accuracy with the load & are satisfied with it, who cares if the patches have burnt spots in it..... Makes no difference, you have obtained the accuracy you want & the patches are not used over anyway.

:m2c:

 

[BLAHMAN]

Just out of curiousity, next time you shoot, try some 2f in the same load (70 grains). If you have any 2f, that is. It's my curiousity of the problem at hand (blown or cut patches).

I just wonder if the patches will come out the same, that's all.

 

[Flintandsteel]

DEJ,
The ONLY thing that causes "burnt" holes in patching material, (assuming they are actually burnt and not cut", is the gasses getting past the patch in the rifling.
It is simply a matter of getting a tight enough patch/ball combination to make it work.
I've personally used FFFg in everything up to 20g because like some others have said, it burns cleaner. I also know guys who swear by FFg in a .32.
If the powder/patch/ball combination gives you the best accuracy you can squeeze out of your gun, use it.
However, with that being said, if you are getting burned patches, there is no way you are getting that best accuracy. Any pressure change is essentially changing the velocity of your projectile. Also, if it is burning out on one side faster than the other, can make that projectile do incredibly odd things. Both will change your point of impact and give you less consistent groups.
As someone else has said, you have to put it on paper and see what that barrel likes.
Depending on the depth of the rifling, some barrels will like a .010 undersized ball with a .010 patch, some will like a bore sized ball with .025 patch. Even barrels from the same manufacturer will vary.
I have Getz barrels on most of my guns, and they will shoot with acceptable accuracy with .005 under bore size and .018 patch. They REALLY like a bore size ball and .020 patches. Of course this makes them harder to load, but the returns are worthwhile.
I have two Getz barrels in .40 cal, both like .400 ball with .020 patching. If I am shooting gongs on a trail walk. I'll use .395 with the same .l020 patch and do very well. Both barrels are coned, and I can just thumb start the .395.
Any how, get a couple of different sized balls, and patching material, and see just what it likes.
Then go out and drive some tacks!! :m2c: :yakyak:
Sorry to be so windy.