Holland and Holland Identification

[Brokennock]

Guys. The o.p. hasn't been on here since posting this.
I'm thinking this was a troll, and maybe just a way to get traffic to the sales advertisement.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I’ll support that theory. Not even a bit of fun. But remember the “buyer beware”
Let’s get back to real work, cold & overcast in uk.
Going hunting my pal from Scotland going to play the bagpipes and hopes to kill a Haggis tonight , last year he stabbed one thrice with his big knife , definitely a dead haggis, disgusting animal to eat though ,

 

[Brokennock]

I’ll support that theory. Not even a bit of fun. But remember the “buyer beware”
Let’s get back to real work, cold & overcast in uk.
Going hunting my pal from Scotland going to play the bagpipes and hopes to kill a Haggis tonight , last year he stabbed one thrice with his big knife , definitely a dead haggis, disgusting animal to eat though ,

I'd rather eat dirty socks than haggis.

 

[FishDFly]

Haggis, a new word, at least to me so I had to go find out about the word.

"a Scottish dish consisting of a sheep's or calf's offal mixed with suet, oatmeal, and seasoning and boiled in a bag, traditionally one made from the animal's stomach."

Don't think so.

 

[bootsmotors]

First, I would like to thank everyone who replied and provided information I so needed. I had no intension of misleading or offending anyone with this post I truly only came here for information I didn't have. We pride ourselves to be a reputable business and I will personally address the ad when I get back to work next week. We get a lot of guns on consignment and this one was just out of our wheelhouse. I tried to research the gun but found nothing anywhere. We posted what the owner said was the price she thought her husband paid. It does have a London proof mark on the barrel as Cutfinger posted. I sorry if I've offended some one who thinks this thread has become a "joke" and "I'm someone trying to convince you into thinking this bag of garbage was made by the world's greatest gunmaker". I assure that is not the case. I certainly understand the passion you guys have for your hobby and understand getting annoyed over someone trying to pass off something that isn't what it's seems to be. Thank you all so very much you've been very helpful. God Bless you all. Boots

 

[Gordoncourtney]

And educating you, it’s Robbie Burns 250th birthday think 14 jan really and the killing of the haggis all in one yes a Burns night great speeches to the haggis Bagpipes too , terrible sound Go to utube
Robbie was a famous Scottish poet and a lover of women had two lots of twins before he married her then more totalling 9. Not to mention 5 other lassies he did he had babies with , sounds like he was a 1960s hippy writing poetry and shagging young women , and died young. It’s a Scottish thing but we English somehow join in , Scottish *******s everywhere , I am french from 1160 and a Anglo Saxon but dad got married in a kilt as his friend was Scottish and fought together in Burma with the London Scottish regiment. That’s why I am called Gordon after a Scottish *******, could be worse!!!! History lessons on this forum whatever next cooking disgusting french Cassolete all food of the poor and the Middle Ages all daggers swords and claymores in those days no guns to talk about been to the battle fields of Calludon not a ghost in sight and absolutly peeing with rain, God forsaken place. Ha ha. Better stop before I upset somebody.
I wish you all well across the pond and over the border “ happy to meet, sorry to part, but happy to meet again “

 

[Gordoncourtney]

First, I would like to thank everyone who replied and provided information I so needed. I had no intension of misleading or offending anyone with this post I truly only came here for information I didn't have. We pride ourselves to be a reputable business and I will personally address the ad when I get back to work next week. We get a lot of guns on consignment and this one was just out of our wheelhouse. I tried to research the gun but found nothing anywhere. We posted what the owner said was the price she thought her husband paid. It does have a London proof mark on the barrel as Cutfinger posted. I sorry if I've offended some one who thinks this thread has become a "joke" and "I'm someone trying to convince you into thinking this bag of garbage was made by the world's greatest gunmaker". I assure that is not the case. I certainly understand the passion you guys have for your hobby and understand getting annoyed over someone trying to pass off something that isn't what it's seems to be. Thank you all so very much you've been very helpful. God Bless you all. Boots

It’s a brill forum one of the best , thank you for your reply, yes we do get a bit enthusiastic , it’s a gunny thing, don’t give up on us it’s so educating , see even some don’t even know about hunting the Haggis As always the buyer beware

 

[Grenadier1758]

Indian manufactured guns will often have replica British proof marks. None the less it should have markings on the underside of the barrel to indicate that the gun was manufactured in India.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Haggis is fine with the right single malt to accompany!

I'm not sure I'd go far put of my way for it, but it's basically hash. It never claimed to be grand fare. I'll say this though, regardless of whether anyone likes Haggis. My mom's side were Robertsons, and we honeymooned in Perthshire near their old clan seat. Prettiest place per-square-mile I've ever seen.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Haggis, a new word, at least to me so I had to go find out about the word.

"a Scottish dish consisting of a sheep's or calf's offal mixed with suet, oatmeal, and seasoning and boiled in a bag, traditionally one made from the animal's stomach."

Don't think so.

two short clips. Sorry other too big a file

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Quick clip

 

[Robby]

Old bill and Fred Holland still cranking out those knock-off's for the hunting public. C'mon guys you just don't have the haggis, er gut's to admit these fine guns are a bargain, proof marks or not.
Robby, the Bruce.

 

[bootsmotors]

Would like to thank everyone again for their expertise and info. This forum was the only thing I could think of to shed some light on a gun we knew nothing about. Frankly I don't understand the hostility. Troll? Advertising department? I got a rickety old desk, and a laptop. Do you guys treat all new members this way? Doesn't the gun community have enough enemies without having to eat our own? We're just a small shop trying to help a widow sell a gun. None of us are knowledgeable in this area. I'll confess to my ignorance, and we probably blew it on this one.

 

[Robby]

Oh heck Boots, we are all Gods' ignorant children, its' just a matter of degrees.
Robby

 

[Brokennock]

Would like to thank everyone again for their expertise and info. This forum was the only thing I could think of to shed some light on a gun we knew nothing about. Frankly I don't understand the hostility. Troll? Advertising department? I got a rickety old desk, and a laptop. Do you guys treat all new members this way? Doesn't the gun community have enough enemies without having to eat our own? We're just a small shop trying to help a widow sell a gun. None of us are knowledgeable in this area. I'll confess to my ignorance, and we probably blew it on this one.

We have been plagued with scammers lately. And no one here knows you.

I got a rickety old desk, and a laptop.

No one here has any way of knowing this.
You probably should have waited for some replies before posting the gun for sale.
Also, an email with detailed pictures to someplace like Rock Island Auctions might get you a more direct appraisal in the future.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

No No Boots. we are not hostile to you one bit , we are hostile to the makers of the gun, and anyone trying to pass it on knowing it was a fake , typical Indian manufacture, they will fake anything, i myself bought almost the same gun in1973 for I recall £28 when I only on £24 a week. The argument was convincing each other it was a fake , as it is it’s probably worth $80 to hang on somebodies wall. As shown above by me Henry Krank uk sells these Indian guns mainly for people to dress up and pretend they are back in the time of wellington. and napolian. , never assume anything and the buyer beware. Putting it up for say $5000 tut tut tut , it’s the shops responsibility to ensure it’s genuine before advertising it, selling fake stuff as genuine makes us all very angry, I’ll say no more , We wish you well

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Would like to thank everyone again for their expertise and info. This forum was the only thing I could think of to shed some light on a gun we knew nothing about. Frankly I don't understand the hostility. Troll? Advertising department? I got a rickety old desk, and a laptop. Do you guys treat all new members this way? Doesn't the gun community have enough enemies without having to eat our own? We're just a small shop trying to help a widow sell a gun. None of us are knowledgeable in this area. I'll confess to my ignorance, and we probably blew it on this one.

No you are a shop selling a fake gun for profit , that’s not what shops are supposed to do, that’s what the argument is about , that’s the long and short of it ,,,,. We can only try to help and point out the rude matter that’s going on. We wish you well Ok perhaps you got carried away and thought it was genuine , I did the same and was well and truly scammed , I was a right plonked, such is life.

 

[bootsmotors]

Owner was chomping at the bit (and still is) to get this listed and sold. Yes, in hindsight I should have waited for you all to chime in. We went solely on the owners stated value. Big mistake. None of us even remotely considered it might be fake. I stated before I tried to find info on this gun and there wasn't anything out there. Maybe the light bulb should have gone off then. That's what brought me here. A widowed little old lady walks into the shop with a (supposedly) Holland and Holland -who would have thought. We felt bad for her loss and just wanted to help. I got to admit you guys know your stuff. I'm nearly 70 and been shooting my entire life and now I find out I wouldn't know a real H&H if it hit me upside the head. Thanks again to everyone.

 

[Heelerau]

Definitely an Indian made Bess, Holland and Holland were not around then.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Bootsmotors The musket is definatly not any Indian copy and I feel the rude railing on about such guns embarrasing inexcusably & ignorantly rude. The musket may not be exactly to pattern but it's clearly well made and not the junk its been labled . Whatever the Abbarcrombie & Fitch connection is I cant say probably a special run for the Bi centenial , whatever its percieved failings the work is high quality its' right as 9 pence' which is to say good quality nothing shonky about it . Ide like to see Mr rude Courtney do as well . & Ive made enough such guns to know what skill is involved. Re Henry Kranks offerered Indian made guns . I used to go to India to buy old guns & get locks and powder flasks made There is nothing wrong with Indian craftsman ship IF you want to pay for it. The failing is the merchants who are savvy & can read & speak English offer such guns and the merchant who sells & ships them get a huge slice .But its not in a Bundook Whalla's nature to pay a fair price they cant resist nickle & dimeing the actual artizans down to the lowest price and just so long as it passes muster its shipped off . . These artizans work in awfull makeshift shops with the crudest tools & often homemade taps & dies .(To improuve this I took out sets of BA & other taps & Dies .They simply copied them which was not my idea !).I sat in a cave like shop i Cawnpore watching as the colourfull group of artizans .( Ime no different , I do the same work before and still do they cant flannel me ). But their forge was an old buiscit tin lined with broken up mud bricks with a piece of old pushbike for the thouer (However its spelt) and one fellow who looked a dead ringer of Charlie Chaplin turned an old US made blower the fuel being charcoal Thier tongs had a square locking ring as they dexerously took out suitable "Es Scrap"a s they put it and smithed out lock plates and all internals by eye . The tumbler was a blob of steel driven through a hole in a block so the extruded result forms it s tumbler shaft . Brass thin gauges very like the ones shown in the Booklets put out by the NMLRA on Arms makeing tecnowledgy.. Its all quick skilled hand & eye stuff but the finnished lock was completed to my given pattern of the various locks I send or brought in. Even a Wheellock which in 1974 might have been the first Wheellock ever made in India ? .(Why would anyone prior ever need or wanted such an article ? think on it ). Point being Iv'e been there & seen that & regard all this Indian bashing with the contempt it deserves . As for sneering at Re Enactors Though the prices now astounds me the pound isn't what it was in 1974 local trade ' Mutiny Enfields' sold for about 6 Pounds as did single shot guns . Such guns where widely offerered for that market Being more flexable as to loading requirements and not subject to the expensive cartridge guns ammunition then about three Rupees each with English imported one nearer 8 R/- each & even they might be suspect.( Ive known Eley Kynock come in rolled crimped with fine almost Dust shot seems it was somehow cheaper but the thin top wads where un crimped and LG stamped thin paper ones recrimped . & sold to some duped villager who felt any Tiger or Dacoit would get its come uppence from the supierior English' LG )'only to further irritate the animal or Dacoit (Bandit). .The morallity of that act & there where many similer Never seemed to trouble the Bundook Whallas in the slightest .' Kali take the hindermost ' seemed to prevail . Iv'e digressed however .
Re Enactors and Im'e joyously one & like many of us am quite happy to take part . May not be ' Shooters' the gun just a part of their kit . Might not see the guns as poor copies the guns are only sold proofed mostly at Birmingham ( as London is a pathetic cling on) .& The Brum proof house are way better able to get through the quantitys & mark there rubbish 'black powder only' stuff' leaving just the actual proof marks . I put heaps through Brum not one failed proof I even bought broken stocked or rejected parts from the Now owner of Kranks worked them up to be proper fire risks and where eagerly sought in the USA some actually chaseing me for one & Dixons bought one ' just to have one' they said . . They seem dear to me me now but wages are way higher than 1974...Could our Mr Courtney match the quality & prices ? . He dosnt seem to know from shinola as his view on the Hollands piece illustrates . There Ive had my say in this matter .
Regards Rudyard

PS Iv'e written ' Kali 'a Hindu God but they have all kinds of Gods So I trust Kali worshipers wont be too offended and my grasp of all the sub continents deitys is a bit limited , if I do know theirs allways one on holiday that makes getting things done sometimes problematic & you think Xmas is a nuisance ! . Oh pardon the spelling its this E gajet they never can spell very well .
R,