Holland and Holland Identification

[flntlokr]

Hi,
First, I have no idea of value. Holland & Holland are premier London gun makers but this gun does not reflect their quality IMO. I suspect it was made for Abercrombie and Fitch to sell in their stores during the American Bicentennial in 1976. Perhaps that gives it some higher value, however, it is a lousy representation of a long land musket from the Rev War period. There are many things wrong, the lock markings, the side plate , the forward ramrod pipe, etc. This was meant to sell to folks who did not know better. I would want to look at the inside of the lock. If it was well made, I might pay $900 so I could work it over and turn it into something historically correct.

dave

What you said. It looks too crude for something that H&H produced. H&H could confirm; I think they are still around.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Yes I know about poor quality Indian craftsmanship even though they have great craftsmanship skills for somethings I know how they work even in the gun making capital way up north Kranks UK find them ok for reanactors but over here they don't fire them even with blanks.
Yes I have lived and worked in a third world country, give them their due the produce magical products from 45 gallon oil drums and the tubes from lorry steering columns

“the little old widow” , the oldest story in the book. The lap top and tatty table. , this is a bright boy, ha ha, but don’t muck with us !!!! I am not being rude to anyone , But we do not want a good providence being given to this gun and disgracing the great knowledge of this forum, and a poor gentleman buyer being convinced this gun is genuine , and the seller making a handsome profit, by a good report of providence statement from us, it’s just not right and we all know it.

H&H are just a short train ride from me and it would be an embarrassing joke me going to them on the forums behalf. I have blown the photograph up on my big screen and the are identical to what bits I have and Indian made guns I have handled , I have handled many H&H guns and also at Holts and Bonhams auctions and at 78 it’s possible I know what I talk about. But judge for yourself The guy is just using the forum for his own profit. Don’t be drawn in , I rest my case. Either way the outcome is always “the buyer beware”. I wish you well. Let the good guys judge me and this so called rifle accordingly I wish you well

I am a great hunter we killed a Haggis last night quite exhausted today

 

[Rudyard]

I would expect Dave to point out that the Quality of the piece isn't in question . Nothing' India 'about it though it may be a wrong pattern the work isn't secondry & ide assess Mr Courtney is no judge . The wood isn't any Indian wood its walnut at least & the wood to metal is faultless .So Its a valid piece whatever the original thinking of A & F or Hollands part in it .Being a top flight firm dosn't nesseseraly mean its stockers know much about any particular period & style and for thier purposes this wasn,t that critical They possibley got some commercial musket & went with that . They must have records & you cant export an unprouved gun . Mr Courtney is being rude by his unbecomeing remarks . Reenactors DO fire their guns & there ALL prooved cant be sold other wise . I know the owner of Kranks I made a Matchlock Caliver for him to use as a pattern to send out whether he did no idea . He was aware of that trade before he bought Kranks they where Longstaffs offerings he bought the the' Krank 'side after he was murdered ?( landed dead anyway ). I don't know Mr Boot Ive no reason to support his claims but the photo cant lie if clearly miss read by some .
Third world ? Iv'e seen my share of 'Dane guns' & actually made one round a Nigerian makers lock '.Uglee' but valid so I stocked it in best seemed water pipe jam tin bands Shedua stocked just as a tribute to Jimmo Babatundi the maker (Iv'e never met) .I fine bored it proofed it down a rabbit hole put it back together & went & potted a bunny and its life is now just display . There are no proof laws in NZ & the rabbits certainly don't have any proof marks. . Standing up for fair play.
Rudyard

 

[DuncNZ]

The Indian made guns have a purpose , they are ideal for the Movie industry , especially for extras in the back ground , I have 2 friends who are movie armorers , they have hundreds of these Bess's and other Indian made guns in stock . Every gun is pulled to pieces and every part is subject to careful scrutiny to ensure safety and function . A lot of these guns have frizzens so soft they cant be hardened and made to spark and are set off in the films by an electronic igniter in the flash hole which ignites the charge when the trigger is pulled , more reliable ,than hoping the extra has not accidently dumped the powder out of the pan, and far far better than the modified trapdoor Springfield's made to look like muzzle loaders and often used in early westerns and Davy Crockett films . These guys also tell me that many actors have no interest in or like for firearms of any type , and are prone to dropping the weapon as soon as the scene is filmed , often damaging the firearm , Better a cheap Indian gun than a custom made or original one .

 

[dave_person]

Hi Guys,
I don't care if H&H's name is on it or if it was sold by Abercrombie and Fitch or if it was made in India, or if it was made to celebrate the American Bicentennial. All of those things may imply some sort of merit but as a representative reproduction of a Brown Bess from the time of the American Revolution, and all of you who know better or should know better realize it is a very poor copy made by some company who did not understand the details of what they were making. Let's just dump the snark or apologies. The simple truth is there are no commercially made reproductions of any pattern of the British Brown Bess worth a damn. They all suck. You cannot get an historically accurate Brown Bess musket except by buying a custom gun by someone who knows what he is doing. That is unfortunate but the truth. And there are only a few modern makers who know how to make Brown Besses and other British guns right and that includes makers in the UK and Commonwealth.

dave

 

[Brokennock]

I tried to find info on this gun and there wasn't anything out there. Maybe the light bulb should have gone off then

Ah, I think you've touched on a large part of the lesson, generally speaking. Not just for this particular gun.
Of a gun was made by a large reputable maker, such as Holland & Holland, but could be Parker, or Perazzi, or even Remington or Colt's,,, there will be information to be found about it. If you can't find anything about a gun like that within the supposed maker's own information on line or through a letter,,, be suspicious.

 

[Historian]

Boots, no hard feelings please sir. I wish you the best at helping that widow. As one member stated we have been dealing with alot of scammers lately and everyone around here is "gunshy" so to speak. You also might have done better if you had posted on the right forum under "Firearms Identification". Please you are welcome here and sorry if any feelings were hurt. Best to you sir.
George.

 

[Rudyard]

Since I have made numerous Bess 's & Carbines many going to to the US (ignoreing the got up Indian ones I made servicable and eminately fit for purpose ) and a particular East India Company pattern now residing the the Leeds RA. I do have a few clues about them. My own Reenactment musket was just a bitzer of wrecked parts I dodged it to call a ' Colonels Purchase Carbine' & that did fine, A cobblers kid is poorest shod .My Waterloo musket was a restored original I sold on for more than I could get in NZ .
Rudyard

 

[Snapshot in Norway]

I'd rather eat dirty socks than haggis.

Begg to differ HAGGIS is nutritious and delicious. Best enjoyed with some single malt.

 

[Snapshot in Norway]

Fake alert did ring when I first saw the pic`s.
1-Holland & Holland newer did flintlocks.
2-the pictures reveals poor craftsmanship. Not a Holland & Holland virtue, they make first class stuff.

This seem like a India made modern replica. They are shoot able, but newer known to be the best shooters. Value might be around $600 not $6000 as suggested.

I sincerely hope to not have offended anyone...!

 

[Gordoncourtney]

absolutely right. Most decent guns way back can be traced back to their makers some accurately like my.6 Reilly cape rifle like 1853. If not the actions, flint of percussion actions will have the makers stamp , barrel makers have their own stamp , one Bess lock for £260 could be traced to the maker in London . of course locals copied guns all over the world , the skill is knowing what is genuine British, German or whatever Many decent guns after 1850 come with a providence from the makers a charge often upwards of £40 is usually made to the public. Contrary to what a gentleman above said, the London proof house is still very important to the gun making trade, been there a number of times and it’s kept the ancient frontage
Fakes are reproduction toys to make people happy in their games , nothing wrong with that ,.nothing wrong with this gun in mention if honestly sold

“. Reproduction Bess flintlock , possibly from India, sold as a wall hanger only, offers around $85”’




“Happy to meet , sorry to part, but happy to meet again “

Begg to differ HAGGIS is nutritious and delicious. Best enjoyed with some single malt.

it was quite tasty this year, the malt went down too well as I slept most of Sunday.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Posted too some. My 450-400 double stamped with “Purdey “. I doubt was made by them but who knows. Buyer beware Guns no comment. Ha ha. I am 79 in a few weeks , yup I can make guns . But we cannot disgrace this forum supporting fakes as original Not my problem really.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

TOWER ARMOURIES, LONDON
A .750 FLINTLOCK MUSKET, MODEL 'INDIA PATTERN BROWN BESS', no visible serial number,
circa 1810, with slightly shortened 38 3/4in. iron barrel, Tower proofs at breech together with a moulded band, borderline engraved lock signed 'TOWER' to the pointed tail and marked with a crown over 'G.R.' device below pan, ring-neck ****, walnut full-stock with brass furniture, the fore-end with swelling at the ramrod throat, stirrup swivels and iron under-barrel ramrod

Please click HERE to view Terms & Conditions.

Estimate £300-500

 

[Brokennock]

Begg to differ HAGGIS is nutritious and delicious. Best enjoyed with some single malt.

Not when you don't like anything that us in it. I don't like oatmeal (except in mom's homemade oatmeal raisin cookiee) and I don't eat organ meat except hearts.

You are certainly welcome to my portion.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

You watch they will ban Haggis from the forum
Just like making black powder. I do a lot of art painting so wanted to make my own paint. Copying making carbon pucks. As part of the paint making progress

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Hello everyone- I joined this forum for the sole purpose of possibly someone having some info on a gun we got in our shop on consignment. Owner's widow had no information. Here's what we know: It's a Holland and Holland flintlock - 45" barrel- barrel mikes right at .74- on top of the barrel it's engraved "Abercrombie and Fitch 1776-1976 Set of Ten". There's a brass plate with the Roman numeral "IX" on the wrist- and that's all we know. There is absolutely nothing on the internet. Currently on Gunbroker # 921421728 to view pictures. we would like to get an approximate value we may be way off base at what we listed it at-we just don't know. I hope I haven't broken any forum rules by this post. ANY information whatsoever would be greatly appreciated. I'll try to attach some pictures. Thank you all very much.View attachment 116174View attachment 116175View attachment 116176View attachment 116177View attachment 116178View attachment 116179View attachment 116181

A replica from 1976. NOT Antique. NOT original. Wrong wood. Wrong finish, no patina. Not historically acurate. New replicas sell for $1300. Used, probably $900 is a good price. Sorry and thanks for asking.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Begg to differ HAGGIS is nutritious and delicious. Best enjoyed with some single malt.

Lots and lots of single malt.

 

[bootsmotors]

Thank you for your take on this piece sir. That certainly took it in another direction. Very informative. I respect everyone's opinion and never expected this many responses. When I get to the shop later, I'll get the ad down and talk to the owner and my boss to relay everything I've learned over the weekend.

 

[bootsmotors]

Apparently, nothing I say is the truth according to Mr. Gordoncourtney. I've been called a scammer, disreputable, a troll, a liar, a "bright boy whose mucking with us". Even got called out for not responding fast enough. Ever consider you might be wrong sir? I have much better things to do than spin tales on the web but I'm sure you won't believe that either.

 

[Robby]

Sorry Sancho, not a Holland.
Robby