Home made barrels

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning John92,

When the gunsmiths at Old Colonial Williamsburg decided to rediscover the methods for making forge-welded ml barrel in the 19th century manner, they discovered that only soft. wrought iron could be successfully used.

Their first attempts at forge-welding barrels involved using modern alloys steels. During the forge-welding process, all would be going well, then suddenly, the barrel would, as they put it, "just collapse".

There is probably a good metalugy reason for this,"collapse. Be that as it may, this problem did not occur when using pure, soft wrought iron. Did the old timer gunsmith know this? Most likely not, simply because alloy steels were still something in the future, and besides they had access to natural deposits of iron ore.

In addition, wrought iron was much easier to finish drill, ream, rifle, shape on the outside of the blank.

When Mr. E. Remington began to produce quality barrel blanks for the trade in the early 1800's, it was a great boon to the gunsmiths of the time.
Even the Hawken brothers took advantage of this advancement. I have seen two original Hawken rifles that had Remington stamped on the bottom of the barrel with the Hawken stamp on the top flat.

With the use of water driven power machinery, a quality bored barrel , either round or octagon shape could be manufactured quicker and easier that by the hands of the old settlement gunsmith.

Have you ever wondered why the major manufacturing and industrial centers had their beginnings in the North/Northest, and never really spead much beyond that?

All of the giant rivers, so necessay to turn the great water wheels to power belt driven machinery are located primarily in that part of the USA. How many accessible great rivers are found west of the Mississippi?

My old mentor, the late Judge H.E. Resley of Fort Stockton, Texas even stopped drilling his own barrels in the late 1950's He used a number of Douglas and Numrich Arms barrel blanks, rifling them himself.

He always lapped the blanks before rifling, stating that the accuracy goes into the barrel before rifling. Years later, I finnally discovered why the lapping first was so crucial. The "Judge" was lapping out any tight spots. making sure that the bore was uniform the entire length.

Pure. soft lesd is a, "dead metal". Once that lead ball or lead slug passes through a tight place in the barrel, it does not expand back to fill the losse place in the barrel bore. From the tight spot in the bore on forward, the ball or slug is just wobbling down the bore.

My personal opinion that when a barrel is lead lapped, the tight places are removed, and that is what improves accuracy, not simply smoothing the barrel. That smoothing or polishing is a side affect, that may or may not help to improve accuracy.

For the beginning barrel maker, I strongly ditto what has already been suggested; start by using predrilled barrel blanks. Learn the art of quality rifling, then move on to forge-welding and shaping barrels.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Socialist/Liberal Politicians Lie!!! USA Freedoms DIE!!!!

 

[Bob Gular]

Barrels were not forged octagon to begin with. They were forged from a flat skelp around a round mandrel in a round swage with one welded seam. They were then indexed and the flats ground and finish filed. Trying to forge a length of iron with eight even sides would be an exercise in frustration indeed. Per example is the octagon to round profile where the round part is heavier than the octagon portion which is ground to shape.

 

[Bob Gular]

Also, keep in mind that the Foxfire series of books that has been referred to here was a high school project and not qualified professional research.

 

[C_Laubach]

Barrels were not forged octagon to begin with. They were forged from a flat skelp around a round mandrel in a round swage with one welded seam. They were then indexed and the flats ground and finish filed. Trying to forge a length of iron with eight even sides would be an exercise in frustration indeed. Per example is the octagon to round profile where the round part is heavier than the octagon portion which is ground to shape.

Bob,
The flats where indeed hammered in. Not ground in.

Chris Laubach

 

[tg]

"The flats where indeed hammered in. Not ground in."

I sasw a recreation of this on a very early hand gonne with a barrel about 16" long, I just wonderd if later ones were done the same, seems like they were. It would seem easier/faster to me.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sorry, Bob. But time was money even back then. Its much easier to forge flats in barrels, after they have been welded around that mandrill, than the time and cost of grinding/filing flats. The mandrill was left in the barrel during the forging to keep the barrel from collapsing in the bore. The flats were finished with grinders, and with files- usually by poorly paid apprentices/indentured servants. The bottom three flats often were not finished, and you will find grind marks on some of the late 18th century/early 19th century barrels, on those flats. On some earlier, military barrels, the bottom was left round, for easy inletting of the stock, and the flats put in only the top 5, where the touch hole, and any sights were affixed.

Swaging blocks( an early version of forming dies) made this possible at the forge. The real time involved is in getting the barrel hot enough to work. Once you have the barrel hot enough, you want to do all the forming you can with a hammer and die. Remington modernized barrel making by constructing a water wheel-operated trip hammer to do the forging work. He also employed mechanical boring machines to speed up straightening, and boring the barrel stock. He was then able to sell gunsmiths quality barrel stock cheaper than they could make barrels themselves at their forge.

 

[Many Klatch]

When I started out in this hobby 25+ years ago I attended a gun building school at Conner Prairie Museum. The gunsmith teaching the class told how to make a swamped barrel using a Surform plane from a regular barrel. He said that a plane was good for one barrel. I never tried it, but it seems to bear out the draw plane idea.

Many Klatch

 

[William Joy]

A power hammer really helps!!

 

[Packdog]

Chris,
Did you learn all that about forging barrels when you were doing it or your dad?
:bow:

Cheers,
Ken

 

[Elnathan]

Barrels were not forged octagon to begin with. They were forged from a flat skelp around a round mandrel in a round swage with one welded seam. They were then indexed and the flats ground and finish filed. Trying to forge a length of iron with eight even sides would be an exercise in frustration indeed. Per example is the octagon to round profile where the round part is heavier than the octagon portion which is ground to shape.

Gary Brumfield on Forging a Barrel From the link:
"After rounding up the tube it is examined for tight spots. If there is any constriction of the bore at this stage the round tube can be reamed with a couple of bits before it is hammered octagon.


I first forge the octagon with a hand hammer at a bright red heat. No swage block is involved in this step--just the flat of the anvil. This is an opportunity to check for welding flaws because they will show up as shadows in the tube. Once the rough octagon is formed, the barrel is again forged octagon with a tool called a flatter. The flatter is struck be a sledge and by keeping the heat at a dull red the barrel will develop a smooth surface and the corners will be sharper."

Believe me, no blacksmith worth his salt would grind anything if he could forge it to shape. Forging an even octagon is not that difficult in any case.

 

[Packdog]

Bookie's barrel welding page

 

[C_Laubach]

Chris,
Did you learn all that about forging barrels when you were doing it or your dad?
:bow:

Cheers,
Ken

Ken,
I was 13 years old when I got my hands-on training on how to forge a barrel, 24 years later I couldn't tell you how many barrels we have forged. We average at least one barrel tube and sometimes two tubes forged up at the Dixon's fair. We have been doing the barrel welding demo there for the last 23-24 year. I don't know how many barrels my father made while working in the Gunshop at Colonial Williamsburg.

I have pictures from one of the demonstrations on my web-site, but do to forum rules I am not allowed to post that link.

I have a pistol barrel that I need to forge up for an order but they are totally different (easier) than a rifle barrel.


Regards,
Chris Laubach

 

[48mauser]

This is very interesting information. How is it that the barrel doesn't get welded to the mandrel during the forging process?

 

[paulvallandigham]

The mandrill is cold, the barrel is hot, and the mandrill is kept moving in and out of the hammered area so it doesn't heat weld to the barrel. There is also " scale " on the mandrill that is rebuilt everytime the mandrill is stuck into a bucket of water to cool it down for the next section of barrel being forged. With the pounding, some of the scale is chipped away, but it is pushed out by the action of the mandrill being put in and pulled out frequently, as well as knocked out when the barrel is uprighted and struck on the anvil or swage.

Its quite a process to watch done. If you are available, get to Dixon's in Eastern Pennsylvania later this month for his Gunbuilder's Fair. ( check his website for details and dates.) A skilled barrel maker- much more skilled than just a blacksmith-- is there every year, forge welding a barrel during the long weekend of events. There is also a rifling machine in the basement of a building near the store, where a barrel is rifled by volunteers over the weekend. This is an old fashioned, hand operated rifling machine, as seen in the Foxfire Books Vol. 5. Again, fascinating to watch, and wonderful commentary by the people doing the work. Its well worth the trip.

Colonial Williamsburg also has a gunsmith making barrels this way, but Not every day the grounds are open. It would be worthwhile calling ahead of time to find out when a new barrel is going to be made. There is a film/dvd? available on the " Gunsmith of Williamsburg", featuring Wallace Gusler. And, out in Iowa, there is the famous " Toad Hall Rifle Shop", where you can learn to make barrels this way. Check the website.

 

[C_Laubach]

This is very interesting information. How is it that the barrel doesn't get welded to the mandrel during the forging process?

48mauser,
The mandrel doesn't weld fast because it is not at welding temp.
The "SKELP" is brought up to welding temp in the forge and then taken out and set on a wage-block and the mandrel is inserted and the smith hammers the the section that is to be welded around the mandrel.


Here are some still photos from the filming of the Video that (www.americanpioneervideo.com) has done on the whole welding process.

Paul is correct if you get a chance to make it to Dixon's Gun makers fair you should stop by and watch us weld up a barrel tube.


Chris Laubach

 

[48mauser]

Thanks for the replies, I had no idea the swage block would be so big.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you are surprised at the size, just try to lift one!

Nice pictures, Chris. I knew someone here on the forums was involved at Dixon's, but couldn't remember who. Now that I know its you, it would be great to get back out there, again, just to talk to you and see you in action. I got there too late in the morning to see the demonstration, because it was way too hot out to be working over a forge. I believe you started at sun up and worked for a couple of hours, and then quit for the day. It was in the 90s, and I was worrying about heat stroke the days I was there, in 2003.

 

[lylekelley3]

You know, with all of this talk of homemade barrels, I have not seen anyone approach the topic of how dangerous a hand forged/welded barrel is!? I will give credit to those who have made and or used these barrels, who have never had a catastrophic failure of a hand forged barrel, but I have seen the results, both of old (75+ years) and new (less than 30 years) hand forged barrels. The chance of obtaining a true, full, welded seam over 30 inches long, by hand, is too high to put near my head with a load in it. Testing (proofing) a barrel can not reveal the weaknesses that long term usage can expose.

I know I sound like an alarmist, but I am the son of a gunsmith, and have built, and helped build many rifles. We make our own barrels, from solid 12L14 steel. I have seen the damage that a fracture, or void can do in a barrel drilled from high quality steel, let alone a hand forged one. Take my advice, if you hand forge your own barrel, build it up, hang it on the wall, and never fire it. That way you can brag to your grandchildren about how you made it yourself. In over 50 years and thousands of barrels, we have never had a barrel split, crack or blowup. I am not trying to sell anything, I just want to put in my 2 cents.

Lyle

 

[C_Laubach]

You know, with all of this talk of homemade barrels, I have not seen anyone approach the topic of how dangerous a hand forged/welded barrel is!? I will give credit to those who have made and or used these barrels, who have never had a catastrophic failure of a hand forged barrel, but I have seen the results, both of old (75+ years) and new (less than 30 years) hand forged barrels. The chance of obtaining a true, full, welded seam over 30 inches long, by hand, is too high to put near my head with a load in it. Testing (proofing) a barrel can not reveal the weaknesses that long term usage can expose.

I know I sound like an alarmist, but I am the son of a gunsmith, and have built, and helped build many rifles. We make our own barrels, from solid 12L14 steel. I have seen the damage that a fracture, or void can do in a barrel drilled from high quality steel, let alone a hand forged one. Take my advice, if you hand forge your own barrel, build it up, hang it on the wall, and never fire it. That way you can brag to your grandchildren about how you made it yourself. In over 50 years and thousands of barrels, we have never had a barrel split, crack or blowup. I am not trying to sell anything, I just want to put in my 2 cents.

Lyle

Lyle,
I could not disagrees more.


Chris Laubach

 

[flintriflesmith]

Lyle,
From about 40 years of historic research I have been able to reach a lot of conclusions based on actual period documents. I have read all manner of documents from newspaper articles to the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. In all of that researh one thing stands out -- people were no smarter and no dumber 200 years ago than they are now. Sure, in every generation there are smart people and dumb people but raw IQ has not changed much in two or three centuries.

So I have a question. If those welded barrels were so dangerous, why did the most brilliant men of the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries continue to purchase and use them? Don't you think a man like Thomas Jefferson would have been smart enough to avoid risking his life and limb? How about George Washington and Patrick Henry?

If barrel bursting was a common, or even rare, problem would it not be reported in the newspapers, written about in letters, and, more importantly, would not the customers have demanded a safer product? Would not the gunsmiths themselves have made having safe barrels a selling point? Ever seen a single period mention of someone afraid to fire their gun for concern about it bursting?

You mentioned a lot of experience in barrel making. Here's an interesting number to think about and compare to your own experience. "During the Napoleonic wars 1803-1815 Birmingham gunmakers supplied two thirds of the guns used by the British army with 1,743,382 guns being made for the Board of Ordnance."
Here's another:
"Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House
... Between 1855 and 1861 six million arms were tested and proofed. The Birmingham Proof House still operates to this day and is the only official proof house outside London." The source of these numbers is an article on the Birmingham gun trade found here: http://madeinbirmingham.org/gun.htm

My point is a simple one. There is little evidence in period documentation that welded barrels were dangerous. Proofing was considered a valid test of the soundness of a barrel. Millions of guns were made with welded barrels and men, both smart and not so smart, purchased and used them without any evidence of concern. Their collective experience seems to outweigh yours.

Gary