Hook Breech and Patent Breech

[JHSA-President]

The snail, top pic, is an integral part of the breech plug. It's a conventional percussion system with a regular percussion hammer. the tail end of the snail in the photo is over the nose of the hammer and may look like it's part of it.

And advantage, theoretically, of the snail is that it can handle higher pressures?

 

[52Bore]

Here’s a original single Bbl, patent breech removed from the barrel.

 

[Idaho Ron]

And advantage, theoretically, of the snail is that it can handle higher pressures?

It's not really a theory. Here is a couple pictures of a Gibbs and a Whitworth. They have "snails"
If all you want to shoot is a PRB the drum might work? But I won't stand beside one that's being shot. Heck I might not stand beside it not being shot. You never know.

 

[JHSA-President]

It's not really a theory. Here is a couple pictures of a Gibbs and a Whitworth. They have "snails"
If all you want to shoot is a PRB the drum might work? But I won't stand beside one that's being shot. Heck I might not stand beside it not being shot. You never know.

Does someone have a picture of the top of the snail with nipple with hammer pulled back so I can see how this breech plug looks and is attached to barrel?

 

[hawkeye2]

As far as attachment, it screws into the back of the barrel like any other breech plug. The exterior configuration of the snail breech plug matches the barrel so only a faint line shows where they join. Sorry I don't have a photo handy.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Does someone have a picture of the top of the snail with nipple with hammer pulled back so I can see how this breech plug looks and is attached to barrel?

 

[Old Hawkeye]

The bottom one is the Hawken hunter. The top picture is the Missouri River Hawken.
If what I'm saying is "hogwash" I would ask that the person that says that. Show me a picture of a long range bullet shooter that uses a drum.
Look at what the Gibbs has. Look at what the Whitworth has.
I absolutely won't stand on the lock side of a rifle being shot that has a drum.

For crying out loud Ron, we are talking about a beginner looking to get a muzzle loader not someone that has the sophisticated background in shooting long range rifles like you do. To tell him a drum is a terrible thing is just not realistic. You may not like them & they aren't as strong as a bolster, but the average guy isn't going to know the difference & it's not the end of the world if he gets a rifle with a drum nipple. They do work & are quite common for Christ sake & will work just fine. He's a beginner, not a long range bullet shooter, & he's just looking to buy what I consider is a very nice rifle to get started in the hobby. Why are you denigrating his choice & expecting him to start at your level of expertise? Instead of trying to start an argument over it, why don't you offer some positive encouragement instead of confusing him with stuff that a beginner isn't even going to comprehend anyway & even scaring him into thinking his rifle is going to explode. Now that's "hogwash". Let him learn like you did. That Missouri River Hawken is a fine piece that anyone would enjoy shooting. It's this kind of stuff that discourages people from joining us. They just go over to the Modern Muzzleloader forum where there are no "elitist" telling them they got it all wrong. Just sayin'.

 

[Idaho Ron]

For crying out loud Ron, we are talking about a beginner looking to get a muzzle loader not someone that has the sophisticated background in shooting long range rifles like you do. To tell him a drum is a terrible thing is just not realistic. You may not like them & they aren't as strong as a bolster, but the average guy isn't going to know the difference & it's not the end of the world if he gets a rifle with a drum nipple. They do work & are quite common for Christ sake & will work just fine. He's a beginner, not a long range bullet shooter, & he's just looking to buy what I consider is a very nice rifle to get started in the hobby. Why are you denigrating his choice & expecting him to start at your level of expertise? Instead of trying to start an argument over it, why don't you offer some positive encouragement instead of confusing him with stuff that a beginner isn't even going to comprehend anyway & even scaring him into thinking his rifle is going to explode. Now that's "hogwash". Let him learn like you did. That Missouri River Hawken is a fine piece that anyone would enjoy shooting. It's this kind of stuff that discourages people from joining us. They just go over to the Modern Muzzleloader forum where there are no "elitist" telling them they got it all wrong. Just sayin'.

It seems like he is wanting a fast twist rifle. Shooting a fast twist means shooting heavy bullets. I'm giving him advise that I would want to know if I were him.
Why plow a pile of money into something that is known to blow out?
If he hasn't spent the money yet, NOW is the time to talk about the down falls of different types.
I will continue to tell guys tge truth as I see it and let them investigate for themselves.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When you understand that a rifle with the drum and nipple should not be loaded to extreme maximum powder capacities since for most purposes maximum charges just aren't needed. I am not all that enthused with all the turns the flash channel takes to the powder charge, but with the practice of managing the build up of fouling and a hot cap, a drum and nipple can provide an enjoyable traditional muzzle loading rifle experience. @Old Hawkeye is quite correct that the rifle with a drum and nipple isn't a good candidate for long range shooting. It is good for shooting up to 100 yards.

As @Idaho Ron points out, he is asking for a fast twist barrel for conical bullets. A rifle with a snail is a better choice to deal with the higher pressures generated while shooting a conical bullet.

 

[JHSA-President]

Thanks! I understand now! I think the Lyman Deerstalker has that configuration My traditions Deerhunter Has the drum attachment… I have shot a 385 grain bullet with 80 grains of FFG and the drum has not blown out the side. How heavy are the bullets/charges that you are worried about?

 

[Old Hawkeye]

It seems like he is wanting a fast twist rifle. Shooting a fast twist means shooting heavy bullets. I'm giving him advise that I would want to know if I were him.
Why plow a pile of money into something that is known to blow out?
If he hasn't spent the money yet, NOW is the time to talk about the down falls of different types.
I will continue to tell guys tge truth as I see it and let them investigate for themselves.

No where in any of the OP's post did I see him saying he wanted to shoot heavy conicals at long ranges. Why did you assume that? Whys does wanting a fast twist automatically mean you are wanting to shoot heavy bullets? I give up!

 

[JHSA-President]

The reason I was thinking of the fast twist was so that I could go between full bore conical like the Hornady Great Plains or No Excuses bullets or experiment with the kinds of bullets that are not as traditional depending on Ballistics and terminal performance. I do not take shots even with scoped centerfire rifles beyond 125 yards and more realistically most of my shots are 75 and under due to environmental constraints

 

[Idaho Ron]

Thanks! I understand now! I think the Lyman Deerstalker has that configuration My traditions Deerhunter Has the drum attachment… I have shot a 385 grain bullet with 80 grains of FFG and the drum has not blown out the side. How heavy are the bullets/charges that you are worried about?

Here is a thread to read right here.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/my-powder-drum-blew-out-is-my-barrel-done-for.127738/
Are you planning to shoot conicals with the gun or PRB? that twist is pretty fast for PRB.
The best thing to sooth Old"s problems. Just Google blowing out a drum on a muzzleloader.
The thread above is one to read. I found this one pretty quick.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Thanks! I understand now! I think the Lyman Deerstalker has that configuration My traditions Deerhunter Has the drum attachment… I have shot a 385 grain bullet with 80 grains of FFG and the drum has not blown out the side. How heavy are the bullets/charges that you are worried about?

Relax! Your drum is not going to blow out of your barrel. Just stay within the manufacturer's recommended loads & it will be fine. Do you really think that all the manufacturer's made all these rifle with total disregard for safety & have exposed themselves to unlimited liability & sold all of these "unsafe" rifles????
Just saw your post #32, you will be fine shooting the bullets mentioned with recommended charges at the ranges you gave.

 

[Idaho Ron]

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/my-drum-is-broken.14332/

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Here is a thread to read right here.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/my-powder-drum-blew-out-is-my-barrel-done-for.127738/
Are you planning to shoot conicals with the gun or PRB? that twist is pretty fast for PRB.
The best thing to sooth Old"s problems. Just Google blowing out a drum on a muzzleloader.
The thread above is one to read. I found this one pretty quick.

Comparing a rifle of unknown age from an obscure maker without knowing the maintenance or the corrosion level to a modern made new muzzleloader is ridiculous! All kinds of old guns fail for many reasons, but to equate that to a new, modern rifle is unfair. Now I see you are showing a rifle that a guy bought for $10 as an example to compare to the new Pedersoli. Brilliant!

 

[Idaho Ron]

Comparing a rifle of unknown age from an obscure maker without knowing the maintenance or the corrosion level to a modern made new muzzleloader is ridiculous! All kinds of old guns fail for many reasons, but to equate that to a new, modern rifle is unfair. Now I see you are showing a rifle that a guy bought for $10 as an example to compare to the new Pedersoli. Brilliant!

There are pages and pages of blown drums. Google it.
There is even instances of blown nipples.
The fact is. The large bullets increase pressures even with what most would call light powder charges nipples are eroded rather quickly by the increased pressures. Those drums are going to get beat up just like the nipples do.
If you think there is no way that can happen that is your opinion. All I'm telling the OP is to do homework. Look into it. Look at the historic long range rifles that shot big bullets. Many of those original rifles from the 1800's are still shooting big bullets long range. Not one has a drum.
You must have a rifle with a drum for you to be this ****** off by the truth. I'm not trying to piss you off. I'm just giving info to a guy that I am thinking was actually wanting info.
Why do you want him to buy a "starter" rifle and learn from mistakes?
He has a chance to buy a gun that has a better chance of doing what he wants from the start.

 

[JHSA-President]

Gentlemen- I appreciate both of the insights. I am not looking to be a long range shooter. I am looking for the moment for a gun that is more engaging to use than my inline ml. I bought the Deerhunter because it was what was available this year though I would have preferred the Deerstalker. The Pedersoli will give me more flexibility in terms of bullets and since my main interest is hunting, I am not so enthused about PRB. I appreciate learning about the blown drums but am also reassured that the stories do not seem to be about production guns made by Lyman and Traditions or Pedersoli in recent years! This may all be moot, since my wife may put the kibosh on any new gun anyway since she did allow me to get the Deerhunter this year. And it out down a doe just fine for me a few weeks ago!

 

[Idaho Ron]

 

[necchi]

Now then…to my real question- should I hesitate to buy a Pedersoli hawken hunter!?

IMHO, Yes.
If the only aspect of that rifle you like is the fast twist for shooting large conical for hunting,, but not being interested in "long range" shooting of those conicals for hunting,, the faster twist won't gain you much.
With proper fitting of size/shape and load development techniques of the many types of conical shared here, the compromise 1-48 twist available with many other rifles of similar design will have harvest capabilities easily within the 100-200yrd range or under. The faster twists are meant to send those big boy's out there further.
There are several other options to consider with the rifle design beyond twist rate of the bore.
Butt shape; flat or curved,(and the fit to "your" body) Cheek; raised or flat. Is there common availability of repair parts,,
Within those basic considerations,, the fast twist of the bore wouldn't be high on my list for a needed hunting rifle.

Good luck friend.