JHSA-President
32 Cal
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- Feb 21, 2022
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Hook Breech and Patent Breech
- Thread starter JHSA-President
- Start date
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I have a Hatfield with a drum and patent breech or antechamber as it was explained to me by a person who sold Pedersoli. I did have ignition issues until I took the drum out and removed the barrel from the stock and flushed it with water. I cannot tell you how many people I have shot with for years did not understand this reduction existed in their guns breeches and started using a 22cal. brush to clean it. We had an endoscope for other uses and it showed clearly the smaller chamber in the breech end. Since the drum on my Hatfield screws thru the barrel and breech plug, I have no fear of it blowing out. I do have an old smooth bore made in the early 1800’s where the drum was threaded only thru the barrel, in front of the breech plug. Over the 150 years of use, the barrel did thin out. When I saw this, I had a gunsmith fit a patent breech into it. Problem solved. I have to say, this conversation of this part of muzzle loading breeches has been very informational. Thanks to all who contributed.
Wildrangeringreen
40 Cal
Good heavens, another drum vs Nock's Patent vs Chambered Breech argument...
People don't seem to realize that barrels, chambered breeches, drums, and cones/vents are all of them, consumables. They get used up over time (just because you can't take it apart to see the wear, doesn't mean it isn't happening (chambered/patent breeches)). The more demanding you are of them (higher performance, whether it be big bullets, large charges, or some combination thereof), the faster they are consumed. Why do modern-unmentionable shooters not really complain about the vents in their cases getting too big or the base of said cases getting weak? Because the case mouths usually crack before they get to that point. You are effectively shooting the same case 100's of times, eventually, something is going to need replaced.
Drums are fine (and can handle as high a pressures as you would want to load), chambered breeches are also fine. They just need to be made to do what you want to do with them. I don't really bother with chambered breeches, unless it's on an inline (like a Babcock or Billinghurst style (would like to do an inline flintlock at some point)... or an unmentionable project I work on off-and-on lol); and that is only done to reduce the flame path length. I use fine threading for drums, of a decent thickness to handle the strain (and if they get whacked on something), never had an issue (even with some ridiculously large loads... like 130gr of powder and 700gr bullets in .50 big). At no point are you exceeding 50,000 psi with any reasonable load (even load data for 50-140-700 "Sharps" or .577/500 no2 3-1/8" doesn't exceed 30,000psi (obviously modern cartridges, used only for illustration purposes)), and the threaded connection for the drum is only taking a small fraction of that (due to it's smaller size vs the bore), and the cone's threaded connection is only taking a fraction of that fraction (due to the small channel leading into the bore). It's just the way I make guns, and there are other ways that also work.
Still want percussion, but don't want to deal with the polarization/bandwagon-ing some people are exhibiting here, just make a tube-lock conversion for a flintlock (blast from the past from Austria and the Northern Italian States)
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Why did full stock guns go out of fashion? Was it because they didn't work? Why did long barrels go in and out of fashion? Why did the "straight comb" or "roman nose" stock styles go in and out of fashion at different times? Not every design choice with these guns has to do with actual functionality... sometimes popular-fashion and maker-preferences play a big part in decisions (especially with large firms wanting to appear "modern"). You still see it today in the modern arms industry.
As far as hooked breech vs fixed, I always go hooked; it's just so much more convenient (basically the reason it caught on originally). Take the lock out, clean it, take the barrel out, clean it, wipe the stock down. Leave it all dry separately before reassembly. Also allows you to break the gun down into a smaller case (either the length of the barrel or stock, which ever is longer).
People don't seem to realize that barrels, chambered breeches, drums, and cones/vents are all of them, consumables. They get used up over time (just because you can't take it apart to see the wear, doesn't mean it isn't happening (chambered/patent breeches)). The more demanding you are of them (higher performance, whether it be big bullets, large charges, or some combination thereof), the faster they are consumed. Why do modern-unmentionable shooters not really complain about the vents in their cases getting too big or the base of said cases getting weak? Because the case mouths usually crack before they get to that point. You are effectively shooting the same case 100's of times, eventually, something is going to need replaced.
Drums are fine (and can handle as high a pressures as you would want to load), chambered breeches are also fine. They just need to be made to do what you want to do with them. I don't really bother with chambered breeches, unless it's on an inline (like a Babcock or Billinghurst style (would like to do an inline flintlock at some point)... or an unmentionable project I work on off-and-on lol); and that is only done to reduce the flame path length. I use fine threading for drums, of a decent thickness to handle the strain (and if they get whacked on something), never had an issue (even with some ridiculously large loads... like 130gr of powder and 700gr bullets in .50 big). At no point are you exceeding 50,000 psi with any reasonable load (even load data for 50-140-700 "Sharps" or .577/500 no2 3-1/8" doesn't exceed 30,000psi (obviously modern cartridges, used only for illustration purposes)), and the threaded connection for the drum is only taking a small fraction of that (due to it's smaller size vs the bore), and the cone's threaded connection is only taking a fraction of that fraction (due to the small channel leading into the bore). It's just the way I make guns, and there are other ways that also work.
Still want percussion, but don't want to deal with the polarization/bandwagon-ing some people are exhibiting here, just make a tube-lock conversion for a flintlock (blast from the past from Austria and the Northern Italian States)
.Why did full stock guns go out of fashion? Was it because they didn't work? Why did long barrels go in and out of fashion? Why did the "straight comb" or "roman nose" stock styles go in and out of fashion at different times? Not every design choice with these guns has to do with actual functionality... sometimes popular-fashion and maker-preferences play a big part in decisions (especially with large firms wanting to appear "modern"). You still see it today in the modern arms industry.
As far as hooked breech vs fixed, I always go hooked; it's just so much more convenient (basically the reason it caught on originally). Take the lock out, clean it, take the barrel out, clean it, wipe the stock down. Leave it all dry separately before reassembly. Also allows you to break the gun down into a smaller case (either the length of the barrel or stock, which ever is longer).
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