Houston, we have a problem...

[UndeadPoet]

So many suggestions, thank you all. I have a lot of things to try.

When I bought the Hawken, along with not being able to find real black powder, #11 percussion caps were not available. I bought some CCI Musket caps, got the correct nipple and started shooting that way. I measured the lands and grooves of the barrel, Grooves, .510" and the lands .501". Does that sound right? All that was available was .495 dia. round balls so I found some material that was .005" thick and shot that way. Little to no fouling then.

When .490 dia. round balls became available, I switched over to using them and the .010 patch. One thing I have noticed about the patches, they come out shredded, even with the thin patch.

With my old CVA .45 cal Kentucky, I just used pillow/mattress ticking, I have no idea how thick it was. I don't remember the exact diameter of the ball but .440 dia. rings a bell. The patches always looked good, like the ones BillKilgore pictured.

I hope this makes sense, I'm not sure if it's important or not. Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions.

If your patches are coming out shredded, try this IdahoLewis trick- put your powder in the barrel, then load one of your patches and push it down on to the powder (overpowder patch), then load your patched round ball. The overpowder patch should save your patch on the round ball from being shredded, and improve your accuracy, etc.

 

[SDSmlf]

If your patches are coming out shredded, try this IdahoLewis trick- put your powder in the barrel, then load one of your patches and push it down on to the powder (overpowder patch), then load your patched round ball. The overpowder patch should save your patch on the round ball from being shredded, and improve your accuracy, etc.

Not sure the old idea of an over powder patch will help based on the OP’s biggest problem being fouling and difficulty loading.

My biggest problem now is the fouling caused by using real black powder. After the third shot, if I don't swab the barrel, it takes a feat of strength to get the patched ball down the barrel.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

I have long thought that T/C barrels were made to use the saboted rounds popular with the in-line crowd - not too great for PRB's.
Also, for .50 cal and above, I always use 2f powder, and experience very little fouling. I do use Hoppes "Black Powder Bore Cleaner" to lightly dampen my patches, never soak them.

 

[SDSmlf]

I have long thought that T/C barrels were made to use the saboted rounds popular with the in-line crowd - not too great for PRB's.

Might want to think on it a bit longer. TC began producing their muzzleloaders with 1-48 barrels around 1970, maybe 15 years or so before the in-line and plastic things became popular.

 

[UndeadPoet]

Not sure the old idea of an over powder patch will help based on the OP’s biggest problem being fouling and difficulty loading.

I think it may help with the patch shredding issue, but don’t know what it will do to help with the fouling (unless “blow by” is causing some of the fouling). I think some of the lube suggestions may be more in line for that.

 

[fromrusk]

If 1 in 48" twist was a bad idea then many modern barrel making companies like Thompson Center have been making serious errors for decades.
Most of modern mass-production modern barrel makers use shallow depth rifling. These barrels require the proper tight-fitting ball & lubed patch combo to obtain good accuracy, that combo will also greatly reduce fouling between shots..
It's unfortunate that today's manufacture's don't at least recommend the correct ball & patch combo loading tips with their firearms as many new to Muzzleloading lack the experience to develop the right patch, ball & load combo & give-up this great historical sport.
Many of the pre-cut packaged patches are not made of a tight enough weave & blow-out easily. Consider buying an inexpensive micrometer, Arch Punch & cut your own patches for much less $$ & obtain far better results..

JamesA's problem might also be simply related to a bore that just needs 'conditioning'. We're very fortunate to have this forum with so many vintage shooters. Many of us had no one to ask & had to learn via the school of hard knocks.
I'm sure many forum members have noticed the barrels in their newer 'mass produced' firearms made over the past 50 years have sharp burrs & edges & have found that they only loaded & shot considerably better after the sharp edges had been removed by either lots of shooting or lapping/conditioning of the bore.

I've been shooting mostly original muzzleloaders over the past 60 years. Many are English or European manufactured & used even faster twist rifling with one turn in the length of the barrel that were designed to shoot patched round balls. They produced excellent accuracy because the proper sized mold was also included by the gun maker.
Most originals also have much deeper rifling & obviously required an even thicker lubed patch to fill the groves. These faster twist barrels also required less of a powder charge to obtain superb accuracy..
relic shooter

I didn't say 1:48 barrels were a "bad idea", they just aren't as good for PRB's
as say a 1:66 barrel is, without a lot of trial and error with different size balls and different thicknesses of patches.
1:48 is excellent with sabots and conical, been shooting them for many years. My experience has been a slower twist barrel is not as problematic with PRB as the faster twist barrels.

 

[Relic shooter]

Again, lots of helpful forum tips here...
Seems the main problem here is excessive fouling caused by blow-by & I agree with other forum that the only solution to resolve that is to properly measure the bore for a better patch & ball fit.
On my first trip to Friendship about 40 years ago an old timer told me that every 'serious shooter' should own a 1" Micrometer & a 6" Vernier caliper. This was the best shooting advice I ever got as we all know that being able to develop & maintain accurate loads. Consistency equals higher scores.

We may get some odd looks at the fabric stores as we check for a dense thread count & 'compressed thickness of the 100% cotton pillow ticking material for patches but it sure pays off in optimum accuracy & ease of loading . For easiest loading & better bore fit I always buy a couple yards & wash it twice to remove the factory starch/sizing solution, getting a couple yards will keep you shooting
Relic shooter

 

[gustrolland]

Finally got out to the range yesterday. Fired a few rounds. My biggest problem now is the fouling caused by using real black powder. After the third shot, if I don't swab the barrel, it takes a feat of strength to get the patched ball down the barrel. I am shooting 75 gr. of FFFG Schuetzen black powder, .490 round ball (Hornady), and a .010 pre lubed patch, winchester magnum percussion cap. Is this too much powder, not enough, what? The first round slides in like it's on greased rails. The second shot, requires a bit of effort. The third round requires some force. After that, forgetaboutit.

The rifle is a Pedersoli Traditional Hawken Target Rifle, .50 caliber. When I first started shooting it, all that was available was pyrodex. I have tried RS, P, and Select. I didn't have much problem with fouling. After finding a couple pounds of Schuetzen FFFG, that's all I have been using. I like the accuracy I get with Schuetzen but the fouling makes it a S.O.B. to shoot without "swabbing" way too often at the range while shooting and takes forever to remove the fouling from the barrel when cleaning it. I clean the rifle after every trip to the range and upon observation, there is no rust in the barrel. I am kind of at a loss. I could try a thinner patch maybe but I don't want the ball bouncing down the barrel. Thanks in advance for any help.

Try using a different patch lube, there are lots of good ones out there. Olive oil, crisco, bore butter and homemade lubes. I use a mix of bear fat bees wax and Vaseline. You can do well with plain lard and cooking oil. And sometimes you just have to shoot enough rounds to get the rifle broken in.

 

[dkasprzak]

@JamesA

I’ve read through this entire thread and want to say you’re not experiencing anything unusual shooting true black powder. As you’ve already learned, black powder fouls much more than any of the substitutes you can use. You stated you like the accuracy of Schutzen but dislike having to swab after a couple of shots. That’s just part of the “experience” with these types of guns.

When I’m at the range with my .50 Hawken (.490 rb, .018 denim patch, mink oil patch lube) my routine is as follows. Clean bore with one damp patch using homemade moose milk followed by dry patch using both sides. Next I load, repeating powder-patch-ball, powder-patch ball, you get the idea. After the shot, I run one damp patch down the barrel, flip it over and run it down again then repeat that process with a dry patch. I never veer from that process, cleaning after every shot. I get the most accurate results wiping between shots and, I use this gun to hunt, I want to know how it shoots with a clean barrel.

Just as you described, I can get off two shots without issue and the third is tough with no go after the third. I read postings from guys who shoot all day without swiping and if that works for them great. It doesn’t work for my gun and as we all know each gun is different. It sounds as though your gun may be one that will foul easier than others.

Now that you have the accuracy where you want, try changing lubes as that will have the greatest effect on fouling (or not). Also, only change one thing at a time, lube, patch thickness, ball diameter etc. Good luck and I hope you find a solution that works for you.

 

[William O.]

Cabela's .50 to .59 cal. Shooting Patch.
• Die cut from carefully selected 100% cotton fabric
• Lubed with a natural lubricant that is environmentally safe
• Has been tested under extreme conditions

I learned to answer questions from a guy that if you asked him what time it is, he would tell you how to build a clock. He drove me NUTS!

Geeze, it's almost 2 AM, I gotta go to bed....take care.

Here's a suggestion for both patch and swab which I find to work well. First, get some 100% cotton flannel for your swabs. Most fabric stores sell it without any dyes or design s, just plain white but as long as it's all cotton it will do. Cut into appropriate sized squares, ones that just cover over the jag you're using, engaging the rifling on the way down the bore. Put the cut swabs in a container that has a lid, then add just enough rubbing alcohol to slightly dampen all the patches. Shake the container to evenly distribute the alcohol. Each swab should be just barely dampened but not dripping. If you can squeeze a drop out then its too much. The result of using these is the cotton flannel picks up a majority of the powder fouling that's been loosened by the alcohol. Swabbing is not cleaning! Down the bore, up to remove and discard the swab. Try it and see if you like the results.
Patches and lube; no flames wars please, I know there are a million types of patch lube. These are some types that have worked for me. First, I've found that the pre cut/ pre lubed patches to be very inconsistent in thickness, weave tightness and age. Some are old and have been sitting around in some warehouse for a long time. These sometimes shred, have lost most of the lube and often don't seal the bore giving on again off again accuracy. I use mattress ticking which is sometimes labeled pillow ticking but whatever it's called in your neck of the woods it must be a tightly woven 100% cotton material. It must be washed and dried to remove the starch before it is used. Cut it into strips just wider than the muzzle and learn to cut the patch at the muzzle. Now, patch lube. I have used straight olive oil with good results. Again, dripping in oil is not good, just evenly distributed in the cloth is fine. Olive oil warmed, NOT cooked!!! and beeswax. About 7 to 1 BW to OO, adjusting the thickness to your preference. Simply wipe one side of the patching material opposite the ball and load. Dry lube; this is from Dutch Scholz, may he RIP.
Use Ballistol, which is water soluble, to make a 6 to 1 or 7 to 1 water to Ballistol mix, shake well and soak your patching material in it. Take it out and gently squeeze out some of the mix, then lay out flat to dry. Cut into strips and cut at the muzzle.
If any of those work for you then pass them on. Good luck.

 

[JamesA]

To all who have given me suggestions to try, Thank You! I have a lot of work ahead of me, something to do while at the range. I really do enjoy working on a problem trying to find a solution. There have been several suggestions that I have the "ingredients" on hand to try. I would have never thought of using them if it hadn't been for everyone's suggestions.

 

[JamesA]

JamesA,If you will take advice of the shooters here they will Help you out. Good shooting and people here. LANEY REECE

I've noticed quite a few people with a lot more experience than I have with "black powder" and some good ideas. Next trip out to the range I guarantee I will be burning some powder.

 

[JamesA]

If 1 in 48" twist was a bad idea then many modern barrel making companies like Thompson Center have been making serious errors for decades.
Most of modern mass-production modern barrel makers use shallow depth rifling. These barrels require the proper tight-fitting ball & lubed patch combo to obtain good accuracy, that combo will also greatly reduce fouling between shots..
It's unfortunate that today's manufacture's don't at least recommend the correct ball & patch combo loading tips with their firearms as many new to Muzzleloading lack the experience to develop the right patch, ball & load combo & give-up this great historical sport.
Many of the pre-cut packaged patches are not made of a tight enough weave & blow-out easily. Consider buying an inexpensive micrometer, Arch Punch & cut your own patches for much less $$ & obtain far better results..

JamesA's problem might also be simply related to a bore that just needs 'conditioning'. We're very fortunate to have this forum with so many vintage shooters. Many of us had no one to ask & had to learn via the school of hard knocks.
I'm sure many forum members have noticed the barrels in their newer 'mass produced' firearms made over the past 50 years have sharp burrs & edges & have found that they only loaded & shot considerably better after the sharp edges had been removed by either lots of shooting or lapping/conditioning of the bore.

I've been shooting mostly original muzzleloaders over the past 60 years. Many are English or European manufactured & used even faster twist rifling with one turn in the length of the barrel that were designed to shoot patched round balls. They produced excellent accuracy because the proper sized mold was also included by the gun maker.
Most originals also have much deeper rifling & obviously required an even thicker lubed patch to fill the groves. These faster twist barrels also required less of a powder charge to obtain superb accuracy..
relic shooter

It's unfortunate that today's manufacture's don't at least recommend the correct ball & patch combo loading tips with their firearms as many new to Muzzleloading lack the experience to develop the right patch, ball & load combo & give-up this great historical sport.

I couldn't agree with you more. I was friends with a guy who shot muzzle loaders in competition and he helped me a lot with my CVA .45 cal Kentucky. Not so with the Hawken, with the exception of the Muzzleloading Forum's combined knowledge now. The Kentucky was almost 40 years ago. I didn't realize it was that long ago. Unfortunately, my friend that helped me previously passed away about 15 years ago.

 

[Mr. Flintlock]

I

If your patches come out shredded, maybe you have a barrel with too much twist, i.e.; 1:48, my experience has been this rate of twist does not like patched round ball. Being a target model, I bet that's the case. The shredded patch does no wiping and allows a lot of blow by.

If your patches are shredding it can be one of two things. The rifiling is new and sharp and is cutting the patch allowing blow by or your patch is too thin. I believe you are dealing with the latter. Cut the charge back to 50 grains and try a thicker patch. I think you'll see improvement.

 

[UndeadPoet]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but just saw this in William O.’s post: “…this is from Dutch Scholz, may he RIP…”
When did Dutch pass? I can’t believe I missed that announcement…

 

[Kansas Jake]

Re. Dutch, check the Beyond the Great Divide thread.

 

[UndeadPoet]

Re. Dutch, check the Beyond the Great Divide thread.

Thanks. I don’t think I had seen that thread before.

 

[flntlokr]

Would brass be better? I would be concerned that the steel ramrod might damage the barrel. The one I use is fiberglass, it's my "range rod". That thing is really tough, it will flex a lot but it hasn't broken yet.

Fibreglass rods are not good for extensive use. When they wear a bit, the glass fibres get exposed. They are harder than steel and will erode the muzzle. Stick with wood, metal or pvc/abs. If you do go with metal, be sure to use a muzzle guard.

 

[French Colonial]

As an alternative to fiberglass go to McMaster Carr's web site and get a Delrin rod. Slick, almost unbreakable, you can machine threads in it so you do not need to put jags on them just screw cleaning tips etc in to the threaded rod.

Or get a good hickory rod..... which is the first and best choice

 

[BozoMiller]

TOW has delrin ramrods