How common were guns in Europe?

[Gary]

Ignoring the Swiss, how common were firearms to the non-aristocratic and non-military masses? Please cite your authority. Thanks!

 

[Stophel]

(other than the Swiss....) Very common in Germany. Rifle shooting was THE sport during the 18th century. They also had civilian militias, and I think I remember reading in one of the Hessian soldier's diaries about his impression of American soldiers resembling the local militias come to muster back home... Not to mention the sheer number of "average grade" civilian guns that still exist from 18th century Germany. Hunting seems to have been "relatively" accessible to ordinary people, but I have yet to figure out just to what extent. There are an awful lot of German 18th century smoothbore guns that are still around...I own three!

Holland also seemed to have a fair amount of civilian gun ownership. Again, civilian militias. Ever seen "De Nachtwache" by Rembrandt?

France and England.....eh, not so much.... The British game laws precluded most of the population from owning any kind of hunting implement. Pistol ownership seems to have been somewhat common...whether it was legal or not...

 

[Jac Spring]

Well, our Founding Fathers saw fit to include the RIGHT to keep and bear in our Consitution - that should tell you something about the state of firearm ownership in Europe... (this is not intended to start a 2A conversation, so please don't as it'll just be deleted!).

I'm just mentioning it as it shows that this topic was high on their list of concerns at the time - due to the restrictions in place throughout most of Europe.

 

[Stophel]

As I understand it, Sweden was quite liberal (in the proper sense of the word) towards gun ownership and hunting in the 18th century.

In Per Kalm's book, he talks about the unrestricted hunting in America, which, even then, had begun to take its toll on wildlife. He said that in America, there should be hunting seasons like there were in Sweden, but he doubted that the Americans would ever follow such laws.

 

[cowpoke1955]

England had the most liberal gun laws in the world, until WWI. So much so, Sam Colt even established a factory in London. There were protest against the war all through Europe. Russia had their revolution by the people and England feared one of their own. That is when the English population lost their guns and never got them back.

 

[WRussell]

England was also among the worst for assaults up until the early 1800s. Handguns were carried basically by anyone who could afford them (they were the ones targeted by thieves, since they had money). They were marketed to women, too. This from reading various books on Brit guns.

 

[Stophel]

"Highwaymen", and "highway robbery"...these phrases come to us from 18th century England, when such crimes were rampant.

 

[PreglerD]

Targetshooting was very common in GE since Medevial times. Especially in the free citys there were "Gilden" and free citizens who formed a militia and trained shooting. The more the aristocratic system established the more guns were only common in the armed forces. This changed again in the Napoleonic times, especially in the era of the liberation wars in Prussia. After that again guns were not much common. Since the 1860 the target shooting began again to establish together with the foundation of the "Deutscher Schützenbund" the first GE shooting association.
Hunting was in every period common, but the normal citizen was only allowed to hunt with smoothies at small game. Big game hunting was reserved for the aristocrats, except in a short time after the german revolution in 1848.At this time the landowners were allowed to hunt on their own property. Because of this all farmers hunted grate numbers of biggame, so that it was reduced in great numbers. The forests were nearly free from deers. In times of aristocracy the deer herds were really planted, because the lords want to see and hunt much game. The effect for the forest was very bad.

From this time there are many smoothbore fowlers, especially poor boy like.

 

[Stophel]

This is about the type of situation I had figured on, but had little to prove it. The rifles were mainly used as target guns (hence the ubiquitous set triggers and dual range sights), and hunting was done mostly with smoothbores. There are so many 18th century German smoothbore guns that still exist, that I always figured that hunting HAD to have been accessible to common folks. Of course, every individual state was essentially its own country, and they would each have their own specific rules.

 

[PreglerD]

I described the situation in Bavaria and a bit in Prussia.
In the terms of hunting Bavaria was a bit more liberal than Prussia.

 

[WabishMukwa]

During the late 1500's firearms were came into fashion among the lower class people in East-Central Europe,because of almost everyday armed conflicts(Turcoman Occupation).They used mainly carbines,arquebuses and pistols with matchlock and wheellock until the mid 18th.century.By that time every citizen carried a pistol of some sort for self defense.Hunting guns with wheellock was also common.The flintlock was a major locktype until 1880's (!)Only those guns for military use fitted with modern (Augustin Tube lock,caplock)locks.The first common breechloaders came in to civilian use in the late 19th.century.Citizens of larger towns and cities had their own shooting clubs (aristocracy only)
Cheers
WB :hatsoff:

 

[Stophel]

Hey Kirrmeister, being Bavarian, maybe you can answer. What is "der Bayrische Hiesel"? I can read/speak only a little Hochdeutsch, and Bavarian (and all South German dialects) I don't quite get. All I know about it is that in the 1770's, there was this guy, apparently a sort of Jesse James type of character, that had a band of merry men who were poachers. I have several pictures in a book, with a whole chapter, which is far too involved for me to try to read given my limited language skills, on the Bayrische Hiesel. It shows the arrest of the poachers, one of the pictures shows the band being loaded up on a sled by the soldiers. Interestingly, you can see all the civilians standing around watching...all leaning against their own guns! One man with a rifle is talking to the officer in charge. I think I have a couple of the photos web-accessible. I'll link them when I get home.

 

[PreglerD]

Hi. find it surprising and interesting that you know the "Bayerische Hiasl".
You are right he was a poacher and leader of a poacher gang. He "worked" in the area of the Bavarian and Würrtemberg border in the area of "Schwaben" if you know that. It is in western Bavaria. First he was only a poacher, but later he and his gang changed to robbery and murder against the upper class. They were cought and sentenced to die. I think the people on the picture you described are hunters who helped the gendarmerie to get the gang. Will look for more and post it if you are interested.

Why do you speak german?

 

[PreglerD]

The Bayerische Hiasl was executed in 1771 in the country of Dillingen. It was a great and cruel spectacel. First his body was shattered with a wooden wheel, then cut into 4 peaces, gutted and the guttings were burried under a "Galgen". The head was picked on a lance.

 

[Stophel]

This scan doesn't show much detail. I like the woodsman in the background leaning on the muzzle of his long gun wearing the hunting cap.

German, the language of my ancestors. My father's side of the family came to America in 1863 from Hessen Kassel. In the 18th century, "my people" ran a mill, which, as I understand it, is still in the Immel family. There were (distant) relatives that were Hessian soldiers here during the war. Some of them stayed/returned when the war was over.

Basically, I read "18th century Martin Luther Bible German", and have learned much from Bach and Telemann church cantatas. Bavarian has lots of words, sounds, and letter combinations that don't exist in High German. "Buam", "Guat Schiassn"...I have no idea what words like this mean.

my album[url] http://photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Jaeger[/url] has several interesting images. Feel free to browse.

 

[RedFeather]

During the late 1500's firearms were came into fashion among the lower class people in East-Central Europe,because of almost everyday armed conflicts(Turcoman Occupation).They used mainly carbines,arquebuses and pistols with matchlock and wheellock until the mid 18th.century.By that time every citizen carried a pistol of some sort for self defense.Hunting guns with wheellock was also common.

I was always under the impression that wheellocks, due to their complexity, were relegated to the wealthy rather than commoners.

 

[bucktales]

Here's a few pictures from Coburg, Germany. There are weapons there from the last thousand years. All types of blackpowder arms are well represented.
Kirrmeister, I hope you've been to this place. :grin:

I guess some "poor" guys owned these.

 

[Homesteader]

Es gibt viele hier die Deutsch sprechen. Mehr Familien in die Vereinigten Staaten stammen aus Deutschland als sogar aus England! Ja, das stimmt!

Meine Familie ist um 1855 aus (vielleicht) Schlesswig-Holstein oder (vielleicht) Bayern nach New Orleans gekommen. Sie haben sich um Culman Alabama umgezogen.

Es ist Jahren seit ich auf Deutsch gesprochen habe. Ich hoffe es nicht zu schlimm ist.

Herzlichen Gruessen!

 

[Maynerd62411]

Now just how much accuracy can a feller get with a heart shaped bullet? :hmm:

 

[Wehrmacht]

The inlays in the third photo....do you know what this work was on and the time frame when it was created? I would really like to know the date! I strongly suspect that this originates in Northern Germany in the time period 1730 to 1780. Can you tell me anything about it? It speaks volumes :hmm: !