How common were guns in Europe?

[Jac Spring]

Its probably a russian Nagant revolver.Thats a huge gun more like a pocket cannon. :rotf:

Probably a "Montenegro Revolver" - (which fired a large caliber - 11mm/.44):

There were larger caliber's out there of course like our own .45's and Germany's Reiche revolver in 11.4mm (?)= around .45 anyway.

The Russian Nagant is only a 30 caliber and is available for under $100 with holster and cleaning rod - I know, because I own one with Russian Imperial markings - which is only interesting, not value-inducing. They shoot weird long-brass cartridges which extend into the forcing cone when fired to seal the gas gap. Kinda cool but a poor design in practical use - the trigger is a bear.

 

[WabishMukwa]

Thanks for the info! :bow: :bow:
Vicious looking gun!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

That's the one I read the article about. You got any info on ballistics? Seems it was more powerful than the BP .45 Colt. And the King decreed that men have a pistol, many carried 2.

 

[Jac Spring]

Sorry, I don't have info on the cartridge specifics... a search of NRA Rifleman Mag's will robably turn it up though as I do remember reading about them - maybe more than once...

 

[Wehrmacht]

What Hank says is true. One of the earlier records of Freemasonry is associated with the Peasants Revolt of 1381 in England which exploded within a matter of three or four days all across the Country led by Walter Tyler,a Mason. The Revolt didn't totally succeed, but it did terminate the practice of Serfdom and initiated the first stages of freeing common people from domination by the Lords and more importantly by the Roman Church which owned at least one-third of the land and wealth of England at the time.

You are correct in saying that the scene depicts Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden of Eden. No problem there-it's obvious. But other subtle things are present which causes me to see a Masonic connection. Unfortunately I'm too rusty on a lot of this now, but I'm diging back through some material to refresh my comprehension.

 

[Bartek]

Witaj bracie :hatsoff:

Matchlocks were most common. By the way "Ogniem i Mieczem" Period ("By the Sword and Fire" Period) means XVII century. It is the title of the book about Polish-Cossack war in 1648. That book is since 120 years "the obligatory reading of every one Pole". I didn't read it... what a shame :redface: :haha:

So Polish army in XVII used few types of long firearms :

1. heavy muskets; called "mares" by soldiers :haha: "Mares" were used by Scottish regiments on the open field and by town/fortress crews to protect walls.

2. average muskets, same typ like in other regions of Europe.

3. light arquebuses. Soldiers loved them, specilly light peasent-infantry. They won many battles using them. Light arcuebuses were specially effective against light cavalry like Tartars and Cossacks, when infantry-men needed to change their posision every minute and to shot non-stop the same time. Hetman (warchief) Zolkiewski captured Moscow in 1610, because his light infantry just shoted all Russian army one month earlier in the battle of Kluszyno. The key of succes was exactly his light infantry with light arquebuses - very fast moving ang shooting without a brake all the time.

4. very short muskets called "krucica" ("the shorty" :haha: ). It was something between pistol and normal musket. "Krucicas" were carried by cavalery in most cases, because they were very handy to shot them with only one hand.

Cossacks and peasents made firearms them self, at home. They made so called "shinbones" :haha:
It was simple hard wood or bone pipe, supported by iron rings with venthole and some primitive stock. Without any lock, just like medieval gonnes. It was off course very primitive weapon, not accurate to much :haha: and some time dangerous for the userhim self. But Cossacks fired "shinbones" allways volley by volley. And they won that way many battles like during their greatest rebel in 1648. When we are hearing about Cossacs we are are thinking about horsemen, but the secret of their military power in XVII c. was excellent infantery.

Pistols (snaplocks) were very common. Every Polish rider or Cossack had 4 - 6 pistols by his belt and sattle. Pistol, following sabre was the main weapon.

So it's all i can tell You right now.

take care :hatsoff:

 

[Itegorm]

Cossacks and peasents made firearms them self, at home. They made so called "shinbones"
It was simple hard wood or bone pipe, supported by iron rings with venthole and some primitive stock. Without any lock, just like medieval gonnes. It was off course very primitive weapon, not accurate to much

Is there anything more you can tell us about these "Shinbones"? It sounds kind of interesting. Any surviving ones around? ANy period discriptions of how they looked?

 

[Bartek]

@Plumebleu :

I never seen any one "shinebone" in museums, private collections etc. I know it only from chronicles.
But i will search more and send You PM about it. We have large number of reenactors in Poland and XVII century is one of beloved periods. Many personas of my friends are Cossacks. So they will know better then me.

pozdrawiam :hatsoff:
bartek

 

[arquebus]

Bartek said: "Matchlocks were most common.....Pistols (snaplocks) were very common. Every Polish rider or Cossack had 4 - 6 pistols by his belt and sattle. Pistol, following sabre was the main weapon."

Hi Bartek,
I would really appreciate it if you could give me some references (particularly photographic) regarding the matchlock pistols. I shoot MLAIC competition and they are currently not allowing european-style matchlock pistols as they say they can not verify that they ever existed. I have my eye on a repro. matchlock pistol, but unless I can find evidence of them actually being used historically it won't be allowed in competition.

 

[Stophel]

I have a photo (somewhere....) of an early 18th century German Match pistol (note, it is NOT a "matchlock"....there is no lock, just the flash pan...it even has a triggerguard, but no trigger!!!). Got to be the most useless implement ever devised. :haha:

 

[Zonie]

arquebus: Try to find a copy of the book Pistols of the World by Claude Blair copyright 1968. The Viking Press, Inc.

It not only shows several matchlock pistols but at least one of them has three rotating barrels!

Text dealing with matchlock pistols is found on pages 2, 26, 64 and 65. Photos are # 499 and 500 (three revolving barrels, Italian c. 1540, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 788. The author dates these last pistols to the 1800's thru the 1900's.
I'm not sure who made them at that late date or why.

zonie

 

[arquebus]

Thanks for the tip Zonie, I have ordered a copy & should have it in a week or so.

 

[arquebus]

I just posted something similar to this in the pre-flintlock forum, but as this thread was also talking about it I thought I'd include it here too.
In my search for 'living proof' of european matchlock pistols I contacted the nice folks at the Royal Armouries Museum in England, as I'd seen a reference on their website to some 'toy matchlock pistols'. They have two of these little guys, both are thought to be early 17th century & they were both discovered at different sites in Essex. They sent me a photo of the better one of the two. Interestingly, the barrel is apparently bored full length & is vented, so was presumably functional!! The lug under the barrel is to hold the ramrod.

 

[arquebus]

Just received the book. The only european matchlock pistol photographed is the three-barreled Italian 'pepperbox' revolver & it is of the Portuguese/Japanese style. However, it does mention another late 17th Century pistol in a museum in Germany that I'll try & find more info. on. The others shown are all eastern guns (Japanese & Indian), two of which are repeaters! Nice book, thanks for the lead Zonie, it'll be a great addition to my gun-library.