How critical is patch size?

[Blizzard of '93]

ditto grenadier it's good to wash the patching a couple times and let dry in the sun it will be more consistent IMO. I use square patches, oversized and cut at the muzzle.

 

[Praridog]

I asked before but can't remember if i found an answer.Can you use silk like the feller in Last of the Mohicans movie?He said ya get 4 more yards of shooting distance?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Considering that real silk was only available in China, in the 18th century, and had to be imported to the Americas, so that the cost of the fabric would be very high, MY B.S. meter was blowing its top when I heard that line in the movie! :rotf: :youcrazy: :bull: :bull: The same reaction to the " 4 more yards" line. :blah: :youcrazy: :bull:

So, I have never tried using real silk as a Patch material. I doubt you can find it in the correct thickness, and, like synthetic materials, its fibers are not going to hold lube very well. :hmm:

Silk burns fairly easily, so without a good lube, I don't see how its going to seal the grooves well to keep the hot gases from blowing by the PRB, burning the silk patch, and cutting the soft lead ball.

The producers deserve credit for the effort they made to hire Re-enactor groups as extras, and how they listened to them regarding uniforms, and equipment. The producers should have required the writers to sit down with people knowledgeable about firearms, to clean up the script. And, while at it, it would have been nice to have them sit down with experienced trackers to find out that a group of people walking through a grassy meadow, including two women, leave enough " sign" to be easily tracked by the Indians of the day. The long skirts the women wore, dragging on the ground, left a wide path of sign along their path. Later, when they were escaping the massacre with the "Major" he was allowed to wear his heave boots, with their thick, hard heels. That left very easy to read foot impressions on the trail, and defeated the entire purpose of Hawkeye , and the Indians from wearing moccasins. I don't recall now if the two women were then wearing moccasins, or European shoes. If the later, those shoes would leave an easy-to-read impression.

There were hundreds of fanciful errors in the script-as there are in the novel-- which just tells you that most writers have no clue about what they are writing about. And, actors are not much help. :shocked2:

 

[Skychief]

I asked before but can't remember if i found an answer.Can you use silk like the feller in Last of the Mohicans movie?He said ya get 4 more yards of shooting distance?

I thought he claimed 40 additional yards instead of 4. Either way, I say :bull: .

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Patch size is critical as is ball diameter, powder charge and lube type. Cotton or linen is best for patch material--no artificial stuff. Silk as patch material isn't very likely and wouldn't give you forty or four yards more, except in Hollywood. Silk would likely burn through in the barrel and fail to seal the grooves as Paul stated. In a rifle, patch material at least .015" thick is about minimum for sealing the bore and for my deep round bottom groove barrels thicker is better.

 

[Zonie]

Silk patches????

Lacking any better starting point I first have to think about what a patch must withstand.
First and foremost, it must be resistant to high temperatures. Next, it must be capable of withstanding a lot of abrasion as it skids down the bore and it must be available in fairly thick pieces of material.

To try to learn about these things I snuck into my wifes area of the bookcase and dug out some of her sewing books.

It appears that silk is available in thicknesses ranging from sheer chiffon to heavy tweed material suitable for suits and heavy gowns. OK, so except for the expense it looks like it passes that test.

Abrasion may be a weak point.
One book talks about it in a chapter called "Fabrics that Require Special Handling" and the first thing it mentions is to go "light and gentle" when working with silk.
It says "hand baste seams and darts...Avoid temporary machine stitching..."
When sewing on a machine it speaks of using very light pressures with the presser foot.

All in all it seems to be fairly fragile but some of that may be due to the damage that would be visable if heavy handed sewing methods were used.

Come to think of it, cramming a tight patch that is wrapped around a lead ball down the bore of a muzzleloader might be kinda heavy handed. :grin:

For temperature resistance I looked into the ironing sections.
They basically say that silk requires "slightly more heat than rayon. But guard against too hot an iron, for it will weaken the fiber..."

Rayon, a man made fabric is ironed at a "low heat, slightly more than nylon..." .

Nylon requires "little heat. Set the heat control to the lowest temperature..."

OK, this gives some idea but where do these Nylon, Rayon and Silks fit when compared with heavy cotton?

They have a paragraph titled "Linen and heavy cotton" and the first words are, "...require a very hot iron..."

All of this seems to boil down to silk being fairly fragile, expensive and very poor with high temperatures like would be needed for a patch in a muzzleloader.

I would say based on this that Hawkeye would be doing good to hit the broad side of a barn if he used silk. The lost gas pressure caused by blowing past the blown out silk patch would cause the velocity to drop and it would increase the fouling in the bore because lower pressures reduce the completeness of black powders burning.

I better put the Sewing Book back before the wife finds me looking at "HER things". No tellin' what she could blame on me for using it. :rotf:

 

[Homesteader]

Concise and comprehensive; well done Zonie! Creative use of reference material, too. :hatsoff:

That settles it, for me at least.

 

[CZMark]

I would say based on this that Hawkeye would be doing good to hit the broad side of a barn if he used silk. The lost gas pressure caused by blowing past the blown out silk patch would cause the velocity to drop and it would increase the fouling in the bore because lower pressures reduce the completeness of black powders burning.

You are obviously wrong. Using a silk patch, he hit that guy, waaay out there, running through trees, in the dark, I saw it...........

:shake:

 

[Zonie]

Once I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken. :rotf:

 

[monkeykoder]

Silk patches????

To try to learn about these things I snuck into my wifes area of the bookcase and dug out some of her sewing books.

Abrasion may be a weak point.
One book talks about it in a chapter called "Fabrics that Require Special Handling" and the first thing it mentions is to go "light and gentle" when working with silk.
It says "hand baste seams and darts...Avoid temporary machine stitching..."
When sewing on a machine it speaks of using very light pressures with the presser foot.

All in all it seems to be fairly fragile but some of that may be due to the damage that would be visable if heavy handed sewing methods were used.

Come to think of it, cramming a tight patch that is wrapped around a lead ball down the bore of a muzzleloader might be kinda heavy handed. :grin:

If I'm not mistaken silk is technically stronger (by cross-sectional area) than cotton. The damage caused by the heavy handed sewing methods would be opening up the weave on the fabric not actual tearing (the difference being that due to the small size of the silk fibers you get many more threads per inch than you would in cotton with the much thicker threads). Of course this doesn't exactly discount your argument (a very good one) it might suggest that with proper care (if possible) the reduced friction of silk over cotton might in fact increase the muzzle velocity (or decrease it depending on burn speed of the BP).

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

We're more concerned with the burn speed of the silk...which in scientific terms is "POOF, she is all gone!!! :v

 

[monkeykoder]

I guess that depends on how much excess oxygen there is when burning black powder. As long as isn't going to make the gun explode I'd say try it just for giggles.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It has been tried many times and found wanting but learning by doing is always useful. Cotton and linen are best and folks have known this for a very long time now. Make sure it is 100% silk and have at it. I wouldn't buy an awful lot of it unless you are also planning to have a suit made. Don't expect to get an extra forty yards out of it and black powder carries its own oxygen supply....

 

[worker11811]

Hey guys, just an update here:

I went out to the range last weekend and tried out my new patches and lube recipe. Worked like a charm!

At 25 yards, I was able to put three shots inside a 1 inch circle & two of those were through the same hole!

At 50 yards, I was able to put three shots into an area about the size of the palm of my hand.

I didn't do any shooting at 100 yards but I am certain I could hit a "man-sized" target with relative ease. A "deer-sized" target would be a piece of cake.

T/C Renegade - .54 cal.
.530 lead ball
60 gr. Goex FFG
Above mentioned "Wal-Mart special" patches.
Lubed with beeswax/olive oil (70%-30%)

All shots were done "semi-benchrest". In other words sitting at the bench but holding the gun in-hand. I can only imagine what I could have done if I had sand bagged the gun!

Looks like I'll be putting the store bought stuff up on the shelf and using home made from now on!