I built myself a 62 cal smoothbore pistol in the hopes of hunting rabbits with it. But I came to discover that you can only hunt small game with a 40 cal or smaller. But if you consider it as a shotgun, then it needs an 18 inch barrel.Mine only has a 12 incher. My question is, who do I suggest a change to?
How do we get laws changed in Pennsylvania?
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Chris Hayes
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Does your state have a law banning the use of handguns for small game? I have a pistol like yours as a second shot for small game. I was questioned by a game warden about it and I stated it's a pistol therefore legal. He agreed and left me alone.
Sperit de bois
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I read where if the barrel was manufactures to the lenght it was legal,,however if you cut it then the 18" min.comes into play.Like the 410 pistols,legal..
Check with DIFW a Warden should clear it up for you.
Check with DIFW a Warden should clear it up for you.
According to the law, Legal for small game are muzzle loading rifles and pistols 40 cal or less. I would like to know how to go about getting that law changed to allow smoothbore pistols of a larger caliber. I think that the Game Commision top dogs don't even know that such a weapon exists. I am sure that the rule was meant for single projectile ammo.
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Did you contact anyone in your state's government? Perhaps they might know how to change the laws in your state?ed1958 said:
Jack,
I have sent emails to the game commission, with no response. Next would be someone in government, but I think I will wait till they are done falling off the cliff.
I have sent emails to the game commission, with no response. Next would be someone in government, but I think I will wait till they are done falling off the cliff.
alex efremenko
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Start by CALLING one of your District PGC Offices and ask.If they do not know, CALL the Harrisburg[main]office.Someone should be able to give an answer.
Sometimes you need to talk to an actual person.
Sometimes you need to talk to an actual person.
Ed 1958, contact the Pennsylvania Sportsman's Federation. http://www.pfsc.org/
It helps if you belong to some kind of sportsman's club, most are affiliated. This is what they do! I went through NYS Sportsman's Federation and changed a law in this state. Good Luck!
Robby
It helps if you belong to some kind of sportsman's club, most are affiliated. This is what they do! I went through NYS Sportsman's Federation and changed a law in this state. Good Luck!
Robby
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zimmerstutzen
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One of my complaints for years is that the PGC as well as the legislature enacts and passes rules with no guidance from anyone who knows more about firearms than a sales clerk at Walmart.
I have written several letters trying to get things opened up for the myriad of breech loading black powder firearms that exist. Like the Ferguson breech loading flintlock, or the Percussion breech loading Sharps. All I get in response is a form letter saying thanks for your concern. But they will drop everything and pass a rule for Remington electronic ignition 700's.
Or consider making Atatls legal during archery.
Neither a matchlock or a wheel lock is legal for deer throughout most of the state.
The other problem, is that the answer to whether something is legal for hunting often depends on the lack of knowledge of the person answering the phone.
The commission regulates some things by ignition, others by caliber with no uniformity across the various types of firearms out there.
Just the fiasco with the cap and ball revolvers is amazing. The commission has issued three conflicting responses to inquiries about their legality for hunting. One said they are legal for small game as muzzle loaders if under 40 caliber, another said they are not legal for small game unless they are under 23 caliber and a third said they are only legal where manually operated pistols are legal.
I have written letters which included ballistic information from published sources to compare the relative safety of cap and ball revolvers compared to rim fire cartridges and everything fell of deaf ears. A few others I know have also written letters with the same results.
Frankly, I have a dozen percussion cap containers that label percussion caps as center fire. So I am going to use my cap and ball revolvers for hunting wherever the rules permit center fire guns. If I am cited by a WCO, it will make an interesting test case. There is no definition of centerfire in the law. I have Remington and Winchester percussion caps labeled centerfire, so a WCO will necessarily need to prove that Remington and Winchester are wrong. It would require an expert on firearms, which they wouldn't bother to hire for a summary offense case.
I have written several letters trying to get things opened up for the myriad of breech loading black powder firearms that exist. Like the Ferguson breech loading flintlock, or the Percussion breech loading Sharps. All I get in response is a form letter saying thanks for your concern. But they will drop everything and pass a rule for Remington electronic ignition 700's.
Or consider making Atatls legal during archery.
Neither a matchlock or a wheel lock is legal for deer throughout most of the state.
The other problem, is that the answer to whether something is legal for hunting often depends on the lack of knowledge of the person answering the phone.
The commission regulates some things by ignition, others by caliber with no uniformity across the various types of firearms out there.
Just the fiasco with the cap and ball revolvers is amazing. The commission has issued three conflicting responses to inquiries about their legality for hunting. One said they are legal for small game as muzzle loaders if under 40 caliber, another said they are not legal for small game unless they are under 23 caliber and a third said they are only legal where manually operated pistols are legal.
I have written letters which included ballistic information from published sources to compare the relative safety of cap and ball revolvers compared to rim fire cartridges and everything fell of deaf ears. A few others I know have also written letters with the same results.
Frankly, I have a dozen percussion cap containers that label percussion caps as center fire. So I am going to use my cap and ball revolvers for hunting wherever the rules permit center fire guns. If I am cited by a WCO, it will make an interesting test case. There is no definition of centerfire in the law. I have Remington and Winchester percussion caps labeled centerfire, so a WCO will necessarily need to prove that Remington and Winchester are wrong. It would require an expert on firearms, which they wouldn't bother to hire for a summary offense case.
zimmerstutzen, If you work with the people in the Federation, http://www.pfsc.org/ , your concerns will carry more weight, a lot more weight. The federation is made up of people like yourself, not politicians. They don't get payed. Their concerns ARE your concerns. If you belong to a sportsman's club, they are probably affiliated. If you are not a member of a club, check with one and find out when and where the local Federation chapter meets, every county has one, and if a county is lacking enough interest to have a chapter, they will usually combine with adjoining counties to form a chapter. Beats banging your head against the wall. Good luck!
Robby
Robby
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Maybe, Maybe not... The legislature passes laws that oftentimes authorize the PGC board of commissoners to adopt regulations that get enforced. You need to first determine which it is that you're dealing with...before you launch your attack! As for the PFSC...getting their support would be better than not having it, but they have no actual control over any of this...I know that might chafe a few out there hearing that spoken, but it's reality! I read an issue of American Hunter some time ago about a guy in WVA hunting with a flintlock smoothbore pistol. I read the PGC Summary booklet and got ticked off. I approached the local PGC rep and got even more ticked off. It seemed like the old issue of .410 pumpkin balls all over again! I'll give you one better...I used to hunt theregular season and doe season with a cap and ball .44 pistol years ago (primarily carried as a coups de grace weapon). Since they passed this verbage, I can't taqke it afield any longer! Does that make sense? GOOD LUCK!
zimmerstutzen
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Until sometime in the 1980's, PA law permitted any manual firearm that fired a solid expanding bullet to be used for hunting deer or small game. (except rimfire rifles had to be over 25 cal.)
In essence, any manual firearm was legal unless they passed a regulation to exclude it.
Now the regulatory scheme is to outlaw everything unless they let it in. They have limted the types of firearms to centerfire and muzzle loaders and shot guns, as if they are the only types of firearms that ever existed. So, no breech loading flint rifles (Ferguson), No breech loading percussion like the Sharps. It doesn't matter how powerful the firearm may be, they have by the nature of their scheme excluded hundreds of fitting firearms from being legal for hunting.
Seems they consult with the sporting goods clerk at Walmart for their firearms knowledge.
In essence, any manual firearm was legal unless they passed a regulation to exclude it.
Now the regulatory scheme is to outlaw everything unless they let it in. They have limted the types of firearms to centerfire and muzzle loaders and shot guns, as if they are the only types of firearms that ever existed. So, no breech loading flint rifles (Ferguson), No breech loading percussion like the Sharps. It doesn't matter how powerful the firearm may be, they have by the nature of their scheme excluded hundreds of fitting firearms from being legal for hunting.
Seems they consult with the sporting goods clerk at Walmart for their firearms knowledge.
phoenix511
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Try this:
(1) Form a group " (State Name)Muzzle Loading shooters." Avoid usings terms like guns, firearms, hunters.
(2) Recruit someone to put their name at the top. Local law school profs are best, and there are a few around. Avoid persons associated with retailers, suppliers, or manufacturers of anything related to fireams.
(3) Build a website, mention it at every sporting goods store, big box retailer, shooting range, and gun club. Compile a list of visitors.
(4) With this visitor list, contact the elected officials where many of them reside, remind them of these voting constituants, offer to help them in their re-election campaign (which start about 2 months after they are elected), for their sponsorship/authorship of your desired legislation. This is where a law prof is helpful as you will need to write this.
(5) Get women involved
(6) Contact members of the committee reviewing this legislation, gently remind them how their support can help their re-election, and how their opposition or indifference can hurt them.
(7) Be prepared to have some folks, especially women, testify before a committee hearing the proposed legislation. Get persons in suits or sport shirts. No camo vests or bushy beards: nothing against these persons but they are a TV turn-off.
(8) Meet with legislators: you've got cash and many persons willing to knock on doors, make telephone calls, distribute campaign literature, and place lawn signs, in return for their suppor to your cause.
(9) Never forget that money conquers all, and reason and logic are of no importance to our government.
(1) Form a group " (State Name)Muzzle Loading shooters." Avoid usings terms like guns, firearms, hunters.
(2) Recruit someone to put their name at the top. Local law school profs are best, and there are a few around. Avoid persons associated with retailers, suppliers, or manufacturers of anything related to fireams.
(3) Build a website, mention it at every sporting goods store, big box retailer, shooting range, and gun club. Compile a list of visitors.
(4) With this visitor list, contact the elected officials where many of them reside, remind them of these voting constituants, offer to help them in their re-election campaign (which start about 2 months after they are elected), for their sponsorship/authorship of your desired legislation. This is where a law prof is helpful as you will need to write this.
(5) Get women involved
(6) Contact members of the committee reviewing this legislation, gently remind them how their support can help their re-election, and how their opposition or indifference can hurt them.
(7) Be prepared to have some folks, especially women, testify before a committee hearing the proposed legislation. Get persons in suits or sport shirts. No camo vests or bushy beards: nothing against these persons but they are a TV turn-off.
(8) Meet with legislators: you've got cash and many persons willing to knock on doors, make telephone calls, distribute campaign literature, and place lawn signs, in return for their suppor to your cause.
(9) Never forget that money conquers all, and reason and logic are of no importance to our government.
bubba15301
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you mean you built yourself a handheld muzzleloading shotgun :wink: :grin: its a muzzleloader, there no regulations on the length of a muzzleloader's barrel.ed1958 said:
zimmerstutzen
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I'd agree, except that here in PA, a muzzleloader pistol must be 40 cal or under for small game. There is no distinction between rifled and smoothbore pistols. Where a firearm might fall under more than one class of firearm, they get very strange. For instance, just mention a Pope style muzzle loading centerfire rifle, and the conservation officers go nuts. They quite unknowingly claim it can't be centerfire AND muzzleloader and threaten arrest and confiscation. That centerfire is the form of ignition and not the place where the gun is loaded, just is beyond their comprehension. Nor do they understand that a flint lock or percussion gun can be a breech loader.
bubba15301
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What if he adds a detachable stock would it then be legal?
zimmerstutzen
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You won't get a straight answer from the PGC.
For instance, a 45 caliber muzzle loader rifle is legal for deer, but a 45 muzzle loader pistol is not but how short can a barrel be on a rifle and still be a rifle? I have a traditions modern inline pistol that someone made a 10 rifle butt stock for. The entire gun is only 20 inches. Because of the short rifle butt is it a rifle or a pistol? They won't say. I have been told by a retired WCO that he would arrest someone with a pistol butt 45 caliber no matter how long the barrel was, in his mind it is a pistol even if the barrel was 30 inches long.
Just as there is no definition of rifle. To me any gun with rifling in the barrel is a rifle, whether it is 30 caliber or 12 ga. I shoot a 24 ga smooth bore. If it had rifling, it would be a 58 caliber rifle. Of course then somebody would ask for a definition of their smooth rifle. Smooth rifles were actually somewhat common in colonial days.
There is a provision in Pa law that absent a legal definition, words have their common meaning. I could argue the issue both ways in front of a magistrate, but I think a pistol is a pistol regardless of whether it was a smooth bore, even a shot gun ga size.
For instance, a 45 caliber muzzle loader rifle is legal for deer, but a 45 muzzle loader pistol is not but how short can a barrel be on a rifle and still be a rifle? I have a traditions modern inline pistol that someone made a 10 rifle butt stock for. The entire gun is only 20 inches. Because of the short rifle butt is it a rifle or a pistol? They won't say. I have been told by a retired WCO that he would arrest someone with a pistol butt 45 caliber no matter how long the barrel was, in his mind it is a pistol even if the barrel was 30 inches long.
Just as there is no definition of rifle. To me any gun with rifling in the barrel is a rifle, whether it is 30 caliber or 12 ga. I shoot a 24 ga smooth bore. If it had rifling, it would be a 58 caliber rifle. Of course then somebody would ask for a definition of their smooth rifle. Smooth rifles were actually somewhat common in colonial days.
There is a provision in Pa law that absent a legal definition, words have their common meaning. I could argue the issue both ways in front of a magistrate, but I think a pistol is a pistol regardless of whether it was a smooth bore, even a shot gun ga size.
bubba15301
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you can use the cap and ball revolver in Pa for the regular deer seasons . i emailed the Pa game commission . got the replies yesterday. i can forward them to you if you want them. Just pm me your email. offer goes to anyone else who wants them.
