How much less energy can I expect with Schuetzen powder verses GOEX?

[Old Shepherd]

What I am looking for is a percentage in velocity for as large a bore musket as anyone has chronographed to see the difference between Schuetzen powder verses GOEX. I use a lot of powder and I am down to a very small amount for me. Schuetzen is available to purchase now and although I prefer GOEX it isn't yet. I load a lot of breech loading metallic cartridges and roll your own combustible cartridges for my Sharps percussion rifle. I can work up new loads for those easy and inexpensively. What really eats the powder is my anvil launching (which I do for public events) and it is very important to me to now just how my charges are going to perform. I start Rodeo's, do memorial services, community events of all kinds and weddings ect. I have also developed a cannon habit. If I am just working up a .577 Schnider load or my favorite .54 caliber muzzle loader hunting or target load that is one thing, but starting over for a performance load that is usually right at 10 ozs with my anvil launcher could get expencive. That is why I seek your thoughts and knowledge.
Respectfully,
Old Shepherd

 

[Old Shepherd]

So just after I posted this I noticed a very professional you-tube video on the subject by Idaholewis that gave me a very good starting point, ( Thank you Sir)
With his .54 cal muzzleloader at 80 grs the difference between the Schutzen powder and GOEX was about 11.5% if I did my math correctly. I would still very much like to here what others may have to share.
Old Sheperd

 

[Frontier's]

Less velocity than goex.

 

[longcruise]

I never launched any anvils but given that it's a spectator display, I doubt anyone will notice any difference if thereisany. I'd just go with 10 oz. Your audience will surely be thrilled regardless.

 

[russellshaffer]

Anvil launcher??? Got a picture?

 

[Rifleman1776]

Can't help with the anvil thing. But, with ml rifles in my experience, I find no difference in performance between Goex and Scheutzen.

 

[Old Shepherd]

Anvil launcher??? Got a picture?

Let me work on that. There are a lot of print pictures but also some good video.
I am going to have to consult with some young folks that do more computer things before I can even attempt that. First of all is it OK to put short video's that aren't you-tube on here? A still picture doesn't do it justice.

 

[russellshaffer]

There have been other videos. Looking forward to it.

 

[hanshi]

I guess I've lead a very sheltered life because I've never heard of "anvil launching" before your post. Those suckers can be heavy!

 

[TDM]

Anvil launcher??? Got a picture?

I guess I've lead a very sheltered life because I've never heard of "anvil launching" before your post. Those suckers can be heavy!

I thought everyone had at least one Anvil launcher.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Seward Nebraska has a big 4th of July celebration. Years ago they had someone “fire the anvil” on the county courthouse square to start the ceremonies since they didn’t have a cannon. Haven’t been there in years so don’t know if they still do it. I saw it a time or two. They set an anvil on the lawn and placed a steel ring about 1” thick by 4”-5” diameter ring on top of the anvil and put black powder in it. I don’t remember if the ring had a hole or groove for a fuse. Another anvil was set upside down on top of the first. The fuse lit and CABOOM. The top anvil got launched into the air.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I guess I've lead a very sheltered life because I've never heard of "anvil launching" before your post. Those suckers can be heavy!

In older times it was called "anvil blowing" or "shooting the anvil"... you invert one and use the hollow space to load up the powder ,then place the other over that, and ignite...

Anvil Shooting

LD

 

[Old Shepherd]

How I launch or shoot an anvil is a little different than they do for competition or sport in the south and south east. That is done like Loyalist Dave described.
Those boys get some serious heights from there shots. How I do it has to be much more precise and controlled. It sometimes is done in city limits and not very far from buildings and crowds. I have a platform (chamber) with heavy plates on the bottom and top that contain the charge and push the anvil upward. I use a 70 pound anvil that rings the best of my collection in a very tight skyward direction just over 100 feet vertical. It is a very fine balance between blast and somewhat controlled upward launch that gives the most upward lift and gives the anvil the most time to ring without being drowned out by just a large blast. I have to take into account the pressure waves emitted and the pressure curve as to where it skips and jumps as to the proximity of the crowd of people or breakable objects (glass) that are near by.
The lower the energy of the charge the lower the balance. Too much energy and you just increase blast and start to get dangerous as far as pressure curves and hurting, scaring and breaking things. There is a lot of things involved with this. Lets just call it a balance between a pyrotechnic display and a theatrical display.
If much changes I must re-write the safety protocols and start the permitting process all over again.
That is why I am after as much of the wisdom as this forum can share with me. Then I will do the final mathematical and physics work.
Old Shepherd.

 

[kyron4]

I just used up the last of my Goex and cracked open a can of Schuetzen , I don't have a chrono, but it felt the same and shot to the same point of aim. If there is any difference in velocity I couldn't tell. The Schutzen did seem to foul less though.

 

[kyron4]

So just after I posted this I noticed a very professional you-tube video on the subject by Idaholewis that gave me a very good starting point, ( Thank you Sir)
With his .54 cal muzzleloader at 80 grs the difference between the Schutzen powder and GOEX was about 11.5% if I did my math correctly. I would still very much like to here what others may have to share.
Old Sheperd

So was the Goex hotter ?

 

[Old Shepherd]

So was the Goex hotter ?

That is what Idaholewis's presentation showed. This is also what I have heard several times over the years.
Old Shepherd

 

[Bushfire]

Lewis doesn't do forums anymore but was a great resource amd a nice guy. He's a believer in Swiss for the most part.

 

[Whughett]

I bought and used up many pounds of Graf and Sons house brand, Schutzen, before they switched it to Goex. I didn’t even notice the switch until I happened to read the cans label. But all I do is punch paper with percussion revolvers or breech loading ACW era carbines. Anvil launching may be a while different story.

 

[hanshi]

How I launch or shoot an anvil is a little different than they do for competition or sport in the south and south east. That is done like Loyalist Dave described.
Those boys get some serious heights from there shots. How I do it has to be much more precise and controlled. It sometimes is done in city limits and not very far from buildings and crowds. I have a platform (chamber) with heavy plates on the bottom and top that contain the charge and push the anvil upward. I use a 70 pound anvil that rings the best of my collection in a very tight skyward direction just over 100 feet vertical. It is a very fine balance between blast and somewhat controlled upward launch that gives the most upward lift and gives the anvil the most time to ring without being drowned out by just a large blast. I have to take into account the pressure waves emitted and the pressure curve as to where it skips and jumps as to the proximity of the crowd of people or breakable objects (glass) that are near by.
The lower the energy of the charge the lower the balance. Too much energy and you just increase blast and start to get dangerous as far as pressure curves and hurting, scaring and breaking things. There is a lot of things involved with this. Lets just call it a balance between a pyrotechnic display and a theatrical display.
If much changes I must re-write the safety protocols and start the permitting process all over again.
That is why I am after as much of the wisdom as this forum can share with me. Then I will do the final mathematical and physics work.
Old Shepherd.

Okay. Now if you tell me that you catch the anvil as it comes down, well, I'll take a large drink of bourbon and go to bed & maybe eat a can of Goex.

 

[Old Shepherd]

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments.
Old Shepherd