How short of a barrel makes sense?

[Hglucky13]

So I've been reading alot about an all-around smoothbore flintlock. Boker's thread got me started down this path and I'm very interested in the idea of a multipurpose flintlock. My hunting is all out west, either in Arizona or Montana as I have homes in each locale and travel back and forth between the two states. Arizona is wide open desert, looking at hunting coues and muley, along with Javelina and rabbit. Montana is in the western part of the state, thick forest, hunting whitetail, muley, elk, squirrel, rabbit, grouse, turkey.
So the idea is a 20 ga smoothbore, likely a trade gun of some sort. But my question is how short of a barrel will keep the performance I need to harvest the listed animals.
I've come across a "canoe gun" from sitting fox, 24" barrel. This would be super handy to carry through the thick woods of montana. But will it still have the reach I might need in arizona?
Most barrels seem to be closer to the 40" or even longer. It this length necessary with blackpowder to get enough velocity? Where is the sensible cutoff length?

 

[rodwha]

I’ve wondered at what point is the barrel too long and the shot actually slowing down before it exits the barrel. The square/British load for the voluminous 20 ga is rather small. I can’t say, but it seems that would have been long burnt out by 40-something inches. Of course not everyone uses those types of loads.

I’m far from knowledgeable, but would think you’d want a longer barrel for Arizona. Maybe a bit of a compromise going to 28”?

 

[Hglucky13]

I’ve wondered at what point is the barrel too long and the shot actually slowing down before it exits the barrel. The square/British load for the voluminous 20 ga is rather small. I can’t say, but it seems that would have been long burnt out by 40-something inches. Of course not everyone uses those types of loads.

I’m far from knowledgeable, but would think you’d want a longer barrel for Arizona. Maybe a bit of a compromise going to 28”?

Thats kinda where my mind is going. At what point is it extra length that isn't helping with velocity.
I realize there is always a balance with speed and handiness. And the ability to adjust the load to fit the barrel length, and get an efficient burn is the goal. In my mind I'd love to make it as short as is still efficient for the game im hunting. Having only been involved with modern firearms im just not sure where that length is in regards to blackpowder. Maybe it needs to be 36", or more. And im good with that. I dont want to shorten just for the fact of shortening it. I guess I'm hoping someone who has used shorter barrels and can give some insight into what makes sense.

 

[Eterry]

I think length of barrel has little to do with effective range in a smoothbore.
In a rifle a longer barrel gives a longer sight radius, but a smoothbore is a short range weapon so barrel length isn't as vital.
Length of shotgun barrels has been debated Ad Nauseam, but I think anything 24" or so works well, especially if your talking about a cylinder choke. If you want to increase range of birdshot, look at a jug choke.

Some say a longer barrel swings easier, but most skeet shooters use short barrels. And they typically swing on their bird much more than trap shooters.

 

[Hglucky13]

I think length of barrel has little to do with effective range in a smoothbore.
In a rifle a longer barrel gives a longer sight radius, but a smoothbore is a short range weapon so barrel length isn't as vital.
Length of shotgun barrels has been debated Ad Nauseam, but I think anything 24" or so works well, especially if your talking about a cylinder choke. If you want to increase range of birdshot, look at a jug choke.

Some say a longer barrel swings easier, but most skeet shooters use short barrels. And they typically swing on their bird much more than trap shooters.

I tend to agree with you regarding shot, but when you add in prb I would think there is a point of losing enough velocity to be ineffective, especially against larger animals.
I am wondering what that length is, or range of lengths that is appropriate for what I'm trying to accomplish.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

The good news is that there are some folks here ho will probably have some specific data.
The bad news is I'll give you my anecdotal view. I love my 42" barrel, particularly when hunting pheasant on the wing. Also, heavier loads for Turkey seem to work better with that longer barrel. All that said, I also use 2f. If you use 3f, which burn a little faster and builds pressure faster, in a slightly shorter barrel those heavier loads may be fine. I'd worry about something under 30 because of the sight picture on those long shots, but that is just me.

 

[Hglucky13]

That's not bad news. Its good to here what everyone's experience is.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I’ve got a 26” .54 cal Renegade bbl, 1:48 twist, works very well with 90gr of 3fg. Next are multiple 32” .50 and .54 cal GPR barrels, again work well with 80-100gr of 2fg or 3fg depending which barrel/projectile/twist rate. Lastly is my 38” .50 Rice barrel, which I’ve only played with target loadsof 60gr 2fg, with exceptional accuracy. I’ve never chrono’d any load.
Walk

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I tend to agree with you regarding shot, but when you add in prb I would think there is a point of losing enough velocity to be ineffective, especially against larger animals. I am wondering what that length is, or range of lengths that is appropriate for what I'm trying to accomplish.

So for a smoothbore, you also have factors of..., The charge that you use, the weight of the projectile, how well you actually can see the target animal, and how accurate the load that you work up.

BTW I know ONE guy, who hasn't ever used anything other than a 20 gauge fusil, 36" barrel for decades. HE has taken deer out to 90 yards. He's "the exception the proves the rule".

So bottom line would be how far a shot are we talking about here? IF it's more than 50 yards, I'm going to tell you to get a rifle.

The Canoe Gun is a niche tool (imho). It's for easy carry and use while you paddle down a stream with overhanging branches and a squirrel gets too overconfident. If you had the muzzle flared, to form a built in funnel for easy loading, then it would be suited to shooting 18th century highwaymen from the driver's seat on a coach, while somebody else drove..., and it would be called a blunderbuss.

I'd stick with a 36" barrel. Something like Pedersoli Indian Tradegun Musket Kit

IF you absolutely need to have it shorter, you could reduce it to 30". It's 20 gauge and with a 80 grain load of 2Fg, out to 50 yards it shall deliver the 3/4 ounce lead wound ball with some authority.

LD

 

[Hglucky13]

Thanks for the info. I look forward to load workup. As far as range I think of it like archery hunting, 40-50 yds. Though if I could reach out to 100 that would open up some opportunities in Arizona.
I'm not fixed on "canoe gun". I just thought if something that short would work, why not. Im more interested in shortest possible and still handle what I'm wanting to hunt. If that ends up being 36" so be it. If 30" can work, even better.
I am leaning very hard towards a smoothbore though. I like the idea of using both shot and ball. It would be nice to have one gun when going on a hunting trip, and be able to hunt smaller game when my tag is filled, or to grab a quick lunch on a slow day.

 

[rodwha]

Thanks for the info. I look forward to load workup. As far as range I think of it like archery hunting, 40-50 yds. Though if I could reach out to 100 that would open up some opportunities in Arizona.
I'm not fixed on "canoe gun". I just thought if something that short would work, why not. Im more interested in shortest possible and still handle what I'm wanting to hunt. If that ends up being 36" so be it. If 30" can work, even better.
I am leaning very hard towards a smoothbore though. I like the idea of using both shot and ball. It would be nice to have one gun when going on a hunting trip, and be able to hunt smaller game when my tag is filled, or to grab a quick lunch on a slow day.

Honestly I’d opt for a smoothbore and a rifle. They just do different things. But I say that mostly because of the very open ranges you speak of. Why not get an additional barrel?

I have a 24” .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker. I bought it as my first muzzleloader figuring it would work well for most any situation, but starting with something I can stalk with all weekend. I intend to purchase a smoothbore barrel as well giving me the ability to hunt anything. And I might just get another .50 cal barrel that’s longer and sports peeps for those hunts that aren’t in the thick stuff.

 

[rodwha]

I have in mind to build a wooden carry box, something like this but with multiple barrels:



I could choose to hunt anything I desired with a simple barrel swap.

 

[Hglucky13]

Honestly I’d opt for a smoothbore and a rifle. They just do different things. But I say that mostly because of the very open ranges you speak of. Why not get an additional barrel?

I have a 24” .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker. I bought it as my first muzzleloader figuring it would work well for most any situation, but starting with something I can stalk with all weekend. I intend to purchase a smoothbore barrel as well giving me the ability to hunt anything. And I might just get another .50 cal barrel that’s longer and sports peeps for those hunts that aren’t in the thick stuff.

I can see doing that. If this ends up like all my other hobbies I'll likely end up building quite a few different guns. It is very easy for me to get sucked down a rabbit hole haha...

 

[Hglucky13]

In my mind i see a utilitarian multi-use weapon i can take on an extended hunting/camping trip. To be able harvest all kinds of game small and large depending on the needs of the trip (and available liscenses). I've enjoyed doing similar with a bow, and see this as another form factor to accomplish this. My preferred path is alone with limited gear. So I suppose this is a romanticized version of the old trapper/mountain man life in short bursts of a week or two at a time.

 

[rodwha]

In my mind i see a utilitarian multi-use weapon i can take on an extended hunting/camping trip. To be able harvest all kinds of game small and large depending on the needs of the trip (and available liscenses). I've enjoyed doing similar with a bow, and see this as another form factor to accomplish this. My preferred path is alone with limited gear. So I suppose this is a romanticized version of the old trapper/mountain man life in short bursts of a week or two at a time.

I just see Arizona being an issue for your smoothbore figuring it seems 50 yds is about max for most people with a patched ball. A challenge is always enjoyable, but when it becomes a skunking proposition it would lose the fun for me. Maybe you have better opportunities to stalk close enough than what I saw in southern New Mexico and Arizona. I wouldn’t belly crawl out there

Wanting one gun that can do it all though is a smoothbore.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My T/C New Englander has a 28" barrel (Coyote Joe did me a jug choke to about a skeet 2/modified) and it is a dandy. But I like my 42" cylinder bore flintlock better. It doesn't feed me any better, or worse, on grouse and rabbits with shot. But it is more rewarding to use for fun and personal satisfaction. It definately throws a round ball better in my hands. Likely because, without sights, the longer barrel points better on relatively stationary targets.

 

[Josephg]

So far 36 is best.

 

[RjSixgun]

Shortest barrel I have on a muzzleloader is an original Austrian Fruhwirth Carbine. 73 caliber with a 13 inch rifled barrel. but its a real blast to shoot!
next shortest is the I have is a CS Richmond Carbine also rifled but in 58 with a 25 inch barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Okay @Hglucky13, its time to save up your money and take a look at the Danny Caywood English Fowler. These are excellent firearms as a smoothbore and sine Caywood offers a 6 barrel interchangeable barrel system, you can have a smooth bored fowling piece and a rifled firearm. The 41 inch barrel 12 gauge fowler weighs about 5 pounds. Talk about pointing like a wand. In this case the 41 inch barrel makes a lot of sense.

http://www.caywoodguns.com/english-fowler.html

 

[GANGGREEN]

Personally, I've always thought that the idea of a short-barreled gun being more useful in the woods is a bit specious. Now, for wing-shooting, sure, I get that because you're literally swinging and following a flying target, but for the average, deer, squirrel, pig or bear hunter, I'm just not sure I've ever seen it. I hunt in northern Pennsylvania and it's not at all unusual for me to hunt in or near recently cut over areas, even reverting clearcuts and I just don't see it. I say buy or build what pleases you and 99% of the time the barrel length will be fine.