How tight should patches be?

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

My Aunt has been successfully rescued and deposited back home and now to continue.

The hickory on the ball seater is an inch long. This allows the ball to be pushed all of the way through the loading block, into the barrel, and seated about 3/8's below the muzzle.

A quick turn-over of the seater, and the 6 inch long starter is used to push the ball down. Dropping the ball seater/starter, the ramrod is used to seat the ball on top of the powder charge. Lifting the rifle with my left hand, my right hand reaches for my Ted Cash capper, a cap is snapped on the nipple, and PRESTO, My late period S. Hawken rifle is ready for the next shot about 30-35 seconds after the last shot.

Now with all of that out of the way, I will have to confess to a dirty little secret. If I am absolutely sure my game is stone dead, before the reloading procedure is started, an extra 30 seconds is used to wipe the bore with one cleaning patch pre-dampened with Hoppes NO. 9 plus.

I KNOW...., I KNOW..... Some of you are going to say, HA,HA I KNEW IT ALL A LONG. Well that's okay. It is just my way of doing things. Maybe I was influenced by reading accounts of the oldtimers wiping their barrels if time and circumstance permitted.

That pretty much describes my reloading technique in the hunting field. I do not think it varys too much from what others are doing. Hopefully, it will be noted that nowhere is there mention of quickly building a bench rest or dragging a portable one behind me.

And yes, I am definately guilty of shooting a lot of paper targets, even animal silhouette ones and have yet to find it dull or boring. Every range session is a learning or testing experience and mostly enjoyable, even if all that is done to check the sight for a proper zero. How could shooting a muzzle loading rifle be anything else than enjoyable.

And yes, my rifles are tuned to the highest possible accuracy level, but I have never considered them to middle level beauties, but created to be top of the line beautiful from the beginning. All I do is groom them to be Miss America winners. Besides, I (and all hunters) have a moral obligation to take game humanly and instantly.A Squirrel's head target requires a rifle capable of shooting less tham 3/4 inch consistently, and I shoot only for a deers neck. If that shot is not available, the shot is never taken, regardless of his size.

And Mr. Stumpkiller, I must, with all due respect, gently chide you about getting away from "patented" items.

Exactly where is that line drawn? What about patented bullet moulds with their patented wooden handles? Or pre-carved stocks run out on a patented duplicating machine? Do we enclude patented cleaning or patch lubing formulas like Bore Butter, Wonder Lube, 103 lube, Hoppes No. 9 Plus and the patented compounds to mix Moose Milk? And what about those patented and patent pending items like a T-C Hawken or Renegade rifle and the CVA's?

Just where is that line drawn before it is crossed into hypocrisy?

I for one do not know, but it does remind me of the time when I was visiting a friend in another state, and he told me about a muzzle loading rifle shoot nearby. We checked it out and learned it was a rendezvous. With the help of my friends wife, I got more or less dressed out in a style that could pass for period dress (I also never travel without a muzzle loading rifle).

So off I go and arrive at said destination making inquiries about shooting in their matches. Thing were going quite well until I won the first two matches. Then, three of the buckskinners lodged a complaint about my dress, ending with my disqualification and an explanation that the rules did not allow a refund of my entry fees. Actually I think it was my Period Correct J&S Hawken Rifle that put them off.

Being the resourceful person I am, I asked that if I stripped down naked wearing only my Dyer mocs, hunting bag, powder horn, and slouch hat, would that be proper attire?

Evidently it was not,even though a number of the ladies present approved of it, because the next thing I know, two very large, heavy bearded, mean looking gentlemen are escorting me off the premise with a hand each under my arm pits and my feet about six inches in the air. Their other hand firmly and resolutely clutched their early 1980's Thompson-Center caplock rifles. And they certainly did look resplendent in their Tandy Leather Company buckskins decorated with imitation bead work

Actually I think one was a CPA and the other a Postal Worker. But they might have been recently cut NFL Linebackers still dealing with feelings of rejection.

In spite of the fact that ladies were chanting things like,

"Let him shoot! Let him shoot! Take it off! Take it all off!

while I kept trying to explain that the old time rendezvous were very wild affairs and anything was OK, and their atitude was certainly disappointing to me, it took a very short time to deposit me back to my period incorrect pickup truck.

I think to this very day their period correct standard smacked of hypocrisy.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

One of the points, I neglected to adequately cover is the value of PLANNED OBJECTIVES in paper punching targets. A soon to be project involves testing accuracy in a coned muzzle. Now some here may has tested coned muzzles for accuracy, but I have still have question.

a friend has loan me his Joe Woods coning tool. In my home work shop are several pieces of cut-off barrel; mont in 6 inch lengths or longer.

Three of these lengths, each with a different rifling style have been carefully and precisely coned and crowned. Different size 50 caliber balls and patch material have been pushed through each barrel and examined for excessive deformation of the soft lead ball

The next step is to fit a 50 caliber 42 inch long Green Mountain barrel to my old Santa Fe Hawkens rifle, crowning the muzzle in my usual manner.

And this will have to be contined. My two typing fingers are rebeling.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[faw3]

So much to learn, so little time, John you are a world of info, keep it comeing please, I for one would of never thought of much you speak of. (one was a postal worker? Your sure it was a T/C not a M-16?)many thanks for shareing all your years of experence. Fred

 

i second that mr. hinnant i am learning more by reading you post than i have from most i have shot with thank you sir.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

Thank you FW and Jax12,

About this business of coning the muzzle of a ML barrel, this idea has intrigued me for years. Many of the original ML rifles were coned, and the late Judge H. E. Resley told me about it more than 50 years ago. He also said coned barrels had never given him the accuracy a choked barrel did.

Growing older (a word I am growing to dislike more and more with each passing day) and gaining more experience and formal education in manufacturing methods, I began to understand the problems involved in coning a barrel accurately and maintaining match accuracy. Several years back, a detailed article was published in MUZZLE BLAST about coning. The author detailed his approach and solution to coning a barrel. It was logical and made good sense. It was then I decided to make one of his tools and cone a barre.

But other projects had a higher priority and time passed. Then along comes Joe Woods (who I knew in Lubbock, Texas in the early 1960's, but has lost contact with him) and his fine coning tool. My interest was sparked anew when a friend ordered and received one in 50 caliber(my favorite caliber).

My experiments to date on cut-off barrels have been two-fold:
gain experience in using the tool and test the ease of loading .490, .495, .498, .500, .5035, and ,509 size balls along with observing the deformation of each size ball.

All ball sizes, except the .509 loaded easily using only a ramrod after pushing a patched ball into the muzzle with my thumb. The .490 and .495 showed no deformation, only the imprint of the cloth patch and rifling. The .500 and .5035 balls gave the same results in addition to a micrometer measured slight elongation. The .509 ball loaded with a bit more resistances, but pushed or extruded lead into small peaks (or "wings" as my friend Frank Collins calls them) along the side of the ball. Past experience tells me this condition is not going to produce match level accuracy.

Different patch lubricants were used, and again Teflon and Young County lube 103 came out on top with Ox-Yoke Wonder Lube a close third.

The next step is set up my new 42 inch long 50 caliber GM barrel on my metal turning lathe, indicate the bore on both ends of the barrel to center to a 0.000 tolerance, crown the muzzle in my usual manner, fit my old Santa Fe Hawkens breech plug to the other end and then put the barrel into the Santa Fe stock, and proceed to the range for a shooting test.

The shooting test is to determine a standard of accuracy. Once the highest possible standard of 50 yard grouping accuracy is determined (I might even scope mount the rifle to maximize sighting accuracy. Did I just hear sharpe intakes of breath? Relax.., it is only a test) the barrel goes back to the shop and lathe for coning.

The lathe is used to minimize all possible human error when coning the barrel. The purpose to make sure the coning tool is properly aligned concentrically and square to the bore.
unless these conditions are met, and as much human error as possible is eliminated, the test cannot be valid except in general terms, And general terms are not what I am interested in.

With the coning completed it will be back to the range for more test shooting at 50 yards. The late Colonel Townsend Whelen said it best of all, "The proof of the pudding is in the shooting".

Only a side-by-side test where all conditions except coning are the same will be a valid comparision. Yes..., Yes...., to completely valid and conclusive, many barrel in different calibers would have to be be tested, but my application for a goverment grant to do this research has been turned down, and the lady of my life ( also sometimes referred to as my Storm and Strife) has also refused to allow funding for the purchase of more barrels.

Now if all of you fellow forum members are willing to contribe to a fund for a continuation of my research, it will be gratefully accepted. After all, all of you will be the receiptants (free, I might add) of this wonderful, scientifically controlled research.

And that Ladies and Gentlemen is the purpose, reason, and value for controlled, extensive bench testing and punching holes in non agressive paper targets....,KNOWLEDGE.

I too want to be able to easily load a patched round ball in the hunting field, using only my thumb and a ramrod, but not sacrifice my personal standard of accuracy. Hopefully my testing with a coned muzzle will prove to be the way.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[Richard Allen]

That's all good information provided by a lot of folks.

I have been away for a few days and would like to clarify the intent of my earlier post. JHabs asked a question and I answered it the best way I knew how, from my personal experiences. I

 

[CoyoteJoe]

:RO:John, Rabbit03, Richard/Ga, I applaud you guys for launching this discussion. I know that many people think that 2-3" groups at 50 yards is good enough for a muzzleloader and perhaps all one can expect. I've even seen a noted gunwritter proudly displaying a photo of what looked like a two inch group at 25 yards. Thank you for pointing out that a GOOD rifle with GOOD loads can shoot well under an inch at 50 yards and THAT is what I expect.
I've never understood the resistance I've encountered on this forum when I've mentioned loading a ball .010" under bore with .033" denim patch. NO, I don't carry a hammer. NO, I've never broken a hickory ramrod. Yes, I've tried the sloppy loads many folks recomend and I got the same sloppy accuracy they get, I just don't settle for that.
I put in a lot of range time with any new gun. I don't have an actual "target rifle" but with muzzleloading or centerfire hunting rifles I try to work up the most accurate load I can find regardless of time or bother. With rimfires I try every load I can find locally, shooting from bench for best accuracy. With shotguns I shoot patterns on paper and try to optimize my loads.
Well, I enjoy the process of problem solving and enjoy seeing the results improve.
If a fellow's goal is to get acceptable accuracy with a load that goes down with one effortless swoop of the ramrod, then I applaud him too. It all boils down to what is "acceptable".
You can never have too much accuracy. I've grown so shaaaky these days that I probably couldn't hold an offhand groupe under 6" with an Olimpic freerifle. But still, my groups would be even larger with a smoothbore.
Acceptable accuracy to me comes when I've tried everything I can think of, have spared no effort and have gotten groups as small as I can get. If my load is not the way Dan Morgan's Riflemen did it that doesn't bother me. My satisfaction is in knowing I've done my best and that gives me an edge over the fellow who takes the easy road. :m2c:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings Richard/GA and Coyote Joe,

I agree with everything both of you gentlemen posted, and I can only add to both of your words by saying, "DITTO"!

My long and serialized posting was in response to a question or questions from MontanaDan, I guess we can blame him for this debate.

The comments about the hunting issue cannot be more accurately stated. For many years I was invovled in the NRA's NATIONAL SIGHT IN DAY. It was truely appalling to see at least 50% of the participants shoot no better than 6-7 inch groups at 100 yards, many at at 50 yards, and then hear the age old refrain, "Well that's good enough for deer hunting".

It would me sick at my stomach to think of the poor deer that would be wounded by these non-marksmen, and the suffering endured by these fine creatures of the animal world.

I make no apology when I say the deer is a noble animal and deserves respect from those who hunt him. For me, it is a spellbinding and magnetic moment when a whitetail buck magically appears in the grey dawn of a chill frosty fall morning, while a low ground fog gently swirls around his lower legs.

Ten years ago, I found myself spending more and more time watching deer and other game than trying to get into position to take a good shot. It was then a personel decision was made to not hunt any more.

I am not an anti-hunter or against hunting in a legal and same manner. But it is my personal decision not to, and I will actively support anyones right to pursue and hunt in a safe manner in accordance with all game laws.

However, come this Fall hunting season, I will be on my place in the Texas Trans-Pecos Region with a favorite rifle watching the deer come and go at their will.

Why because it is my right!

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[faw3]

John, your last posting is maybe the best.( for me that is.) I Live it, havent hunted in years.It would be so easy to just pop one off my back porch they are all so used to me shooting but not at them,for better or worse I do feed them at[url] times.In[/url] just a line or two the coneing is for what to see if I got it right,a lot is over my head, this was covered in ML Blast? When? also if you would just a line on did people really load 200 grs of powder a 50 to 60 cal ball and hit what they aimed at 200 yds away? Ive just got to read chapters from different books never a Hawken book, was the rifle that strong and good all hype aside You sound like you know a lot about them. thank you much. Fred

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings FW,

The Muzzle Blast article about coning was several years back. I do not remember the exact issue. I do have all of my MB back issues from 1980 ( actually much farther back than that) and am in the process of cutting various articles from each one, placing them in plastic sheet page protectors, and filing the articles in three ring binders by subject matter. This is an old carry over from my teaching days.

When I run across that particular article, I will let you know.

Concerning the strength of the old guns, I have serious doubts that 200 or so grain powder charge were used on a regular basis, if at all.

The strength problem lays more in the breech than any where else. My 58 caliber rifle normal charge 185 grains off 2FF Goex black powder and sometimes 200 grains for 220 yards. The breech plug is 3/4" NF X 1 INCH LONG. If one thinks that this is over enginering, they should take this up with Kenneth Bresein, the maker

The barrel is 2" in diameter, 42 " long without the false muzzle. Weight is 51 pounds. While the recoil is tamed with thi weight, you also get a very definite impression this load is not a for a 10- 16 pound hunting rifle with a Hawken steel butt plate.

I too, feed my deer, and it is a pleasure to watch them.

Hope this answers your questions.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load

 

[davy]

Now John .. ya couldn't be talkin about this pipsqueak of a mouse gun could ya? ::

Davy

 

[faw3]

Thanks much I just didnt see how it could be,that or the powder was way down the power chart. Ive seen org "fort made " Sharps with 2 1/2 barrel that shot the 50/140 does that sound right,(the size) but shooting a ball I didnt really know thanks. Im filling out my Muzzle Blast I just got 2001 thru 2003, maybe Ill stumble across it . thanks again. Fred

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Hola Davy,

As a matter of fact, that is the exact one I am talking about, sans sights of course (they are micrometer sights, double aperture front and rear).

Mucho thanks for posting the photos.

Just for the record, the stock is one I made to replace the original which had been severly hacked over by the original owner. I do not like ugly rifles.

Based on my experiences of shooting this rifle at 200 yards, and observing the shooting experiences of other shooters who are much better than I am, I have a second serious doubt that 200 plus yard shots were the norm for the old timers. Their sights alone, would make long range shooting difficult.

Yes...,I understand that some long shots were taken and connected, but, in my opinion, they were the exception to the rule. And yes..., I have tried 200 yard long shots at an NMLRA 200 yard target with one of my Hawken replicas. In either 50 or 54 caliber shooting from a bench and using wind flags, it was a real challenge to keep all shots in the black. At 300 yards, it was impossible. with a number of shots missing the entire target.

The old time buffalo hunters were some of the finest shots in the world, but even they, with their breech loading big bore cartridge rifles, preferred to shoot at a range of 100-125 yards in order to be assured of placing their bullet into exactly the right place.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L, Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.