How tightly to pack rPRB on powder?

[ky_man]

When I was shooting last weekend, I watched a lot of guys seat their PRB with the rod and then 'throw' the rod down the barrel 2-3 times until the rod bounced back up. Is this a good idea for best accuracy?
I read on a website somewhere that it's a good idea to NOT pack the PBR down on the powder, but rather leave it loose. When I push my PRB down the barrel, I can hear air escaping from the touchhole, and I press it down quite firmly. Of course, the ball is seated on the powder with no air gap, but it's not 'bounce' packed down. Does the ball actually deform when 'bounced'? What are your opinions?

 

[Bountyhunter]

There has been quite a bit of experimentation and research on that. It seems that the tighter the powder is packed, the more consistent the shots, and you get higher velocities and cleaner burning.

The guys I shoot with, PACK the powder as tightly as we can push it down and then we do bounce the rod to make sure that there is no question about it. Deform the ball? Not any more than the 8000# of chamber pressure is going to do when the powder burns.

B

 

[jimeckersley]

paulvallandigham has several posts on this subject. he's done quite a bit of experimentation using a chronograph. look at some of his posts.

His results are surprising. A ball just touching the powder produced much more consistancy shot to shot. loads with more pressure had higher velocity but greater variation shot to shot. Often times, when you see people bouncing the rod off the ball or leaning on the rod it's just to make sure the ball is seated all the way against the powder. If the bore is reasonably clean, you shouldn't have to apply a lot of pressure or bounce the rod off the ball.

Some target shooters even use spring loaded range rods to assure the same loading pressure each time. Suit yourself. It's a lot easier to use Paul's method of the ball just touching the powder charge. Just make sure the ball is actually seated on the powder!

 

[wszumera]

Packing pyrodex will result in a misfire. Blackpowder seems to be happy with packing though.

You didn't indicate what kind of powder you are shooting.

Clutch

 

[ky_man]

I use either 2F or 3F Goex BP in my .50 flintlock, .490 RB and .018 pre-lubed patches

 

[paulvallandigham]

If the gun is a percussion rifle, then load the ball with whatever pressure you think you can consistently put on it. Chronograph results show that consistent, but firmly packed powder( as is being done in Black powder Cartridge shooting) seems to produce the most consistent velocities.

If, however, you are shooting a flint rifle, I recommend loading the ball to a mark to just touch the powder. Chronograph results show the lowest SDV doing it this way, although the velocity is approx. 20 fps LESS than if you compact it. That can be easily overcome by adding a little more powder.

It is the deviation in velocity that is the prime cause for opening groups, although if you are not benchrest shooting that gun, you may never notice. At longer ranges( 100, and 200 yds) a PRB is so affected by slight changes in wind, that any difference in group size resulting from a low vs. higher SDV is negated quickly by the wind.

The slug gun shooters, using conicals, are the guys that have proven the wisdom of loading flntlocks differently than percussion guns, as they are different ignition systems, that just happen to both shoot black powder. Trust me, I started out with a percussion rifle, and then converted it to flint. It took me more than a year to accept the fact that I HAD TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY in loading the gun now that the barrel was attached to a flintlock, instead of a percussion lock, to get the same groups and accuracy, after the change. It then took me more than 5 years to figure out all the things that were different, one at a time. MY problem was, like so many of us, I just did not want to believe that changing something I learned to do shooting the same rifle in percussion, would make a difference now that it was a flintlock. If I was not so stubborn, I might have learned that a lot quicker.

NOW, I am being accused of being the wacko around hear because I am letting out all those secrets I have learned shooting flint. I don't blame anyone who doubts my advice. I was there WAY BEFORE they were. And, I don't mind the criticism. I am still reviewing the data, still tweaking this, still trying that. Any time I read a good idea here, I make a note and try it out at the range, or at least make a note to try it out at the range. I am backed up on getting to the range enough these days.

 

[ky_man]

Hey, I'm all ears. I'm going to bench shoot it this Sat., hopefully. I'll try both ways to see if there's any difference.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I don't blame anyone who doubts my advice. I was there WAY BEFORE they were

Ok, I'll bite, How long have you been shooting flint guns?

 

[Stumpkiller]

NOW, I am being accused of being the wacko around hear because I am letting out all those secrets

You can set your mind at ease. That's not the reason we consider you a wacko.

I have tried setting a feather quill in the touch-hole and packing the powder & ball down to leave a cavity for the flash to enter, but usually I just give the ball a good, hard push with my fingertips. I don't put the palm of my hand over a rammer at any time.

I mark my rod in an empty barrel (grooved with my thumbnail), so I know three fingers between the muzzle and mark is a ball set with no airspace.

 

[TN.Frank]

I've heard that you should just touch the PRB to powder in a flintlock to leave some air in amongst the powder. In a percussion gun you can pack it tighter because the flash from the cap is a bit hotter and will still touch it off if it's packed.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mr. Brooks. I converted my percussion rifle to flint back in about 1983 or 4. I shot my first flint gun when I was a teenager in the late 1950's. I was doing trick shooting at my gun club in the late 70s and early 80s, with my percussion gun, and one of the guys challenged me to do it with his flinter. It was so much fun, I decided to ask a friend to convert my rifle. I have never looked back. I had a CVA double barrel percussion rifle kit in the making when I switched the rifle, and still have the shotgun. It does really well on pheasant, and chukkar. I have fired other percussion rifles since I changed my own, to test them for their owners, and to test some of the ideas I have come across here, and before in other sources to see what works best. Playing with that chronograph has been the most informative, and it has paid for itself with all the time I have saved over the old and longer way I used to have to do things to find out what works.

 

[roundball]

I believe that the most important aspect of shot to shot consistency is consistentcy itself.

For my purposes, I get the most confidence that I'm applying consistent seating pressure when I seat it as hard as I can every time...I hear the sound of the powder crunching being tele-graphed up through the range rod.

I've crunch-seated Pyrodex RS, Goex 3F and 2F for many years now and trust that approach completely, always reliable and consistent.

Black powder does not have to be loose to allow space for air so it'll burn better as BP generates it's own oxygen...the proof is my 100% compression seating that when I bloop the load out into a box of towels with compressed air, the Goex powder comes out as a formed pellet...(looks like a BP sub pellet and is probably where they got the idea).

Also, BP cartridge shooters used compressed loads in sealed cases that have no air in them...metallic shotgun shells using BP have no air supply, etc.

Not interested in taking away from anything that anybody else enjoys doing...I don't happen bounce a ramrod on a seated load as it's unnecessary...and for me personally because it sounds like one of those old wives tales.

Other's mileage may vary...

 

[jdixon]

I have a GM barrel that the powder doesn't seem to get into the flash hole channel very well without a little help. After dumping powder I take the ram and bounce it on the powder several times packing it into this area, then run a pick into the flash hole. As for seating the ball, the seat lightly method Paul describes does seem to work about the best.

 

[whitetrash078]

...(looks like a BP sub pellet and is probably where they got the idea).

Now there is a good Idea GOEX pellets, they would keep everybody happy; inline guys don't have to measure anything and we still get to shoot real BP. :youcrazy: :blah: :rotf: :shake:

 

[TN.Frank]

...(looks like a BP sub pellet and is probably where they got the idea).

Now there is a good Idea GOEX pellets, they would keep everybody happy; inline guys don't have to measure anything and we still get to shoot real BP. :youcrazy: :blah: :rotf: :shake:

and they'd probably ignight easier and not leave a "crud ring" like the Triple 7 pellets are suppose to do. Very good idea, now to get Goex on track with production. :thumbsup:

 

[flintlockmdj]

I have alwayse been of the opinion that concistincy is necessary in loading to get consistincy in accurscy. In other words try to do the same things the same way for each shot.

I don't see how you can load and "spring" a ramrod consistently. I just push down on the ball with the ramrod untill I feal it seat on the powder. With experience you will get very consistent in doing this.

Oh did I mention the need for consistency? :rotf:

 

[ky_man]

With the ball/patch combo I'm using (.50 flint, .490 RB, .018 pre-lubed patches) it's a tight fit, and if there's fouling, it can be a chore to seat the ball. I really can't seem to "lightly seat" the ball on the powder well. For example, I used the 'bounce' method' when I made my 50, 60, 70 and 80 grain marks on the ramrod. However, my best light seating w/50 grains leaves 3/16" or so between the mark and the top of the muzzle. If I 'throw' the rod down, then 'bounce' it a few times, I can get to the mark. Would I be safe using the 'bounce' or 'light seat' method'? I'm worried that I'm approaching the dreaded powder/ball gap I hear is so dangerous. What safety margin do I have as far as this gap is concerned?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Say what? First. you set the load and the ball on the powder at the range with a freshly cleaned barrel. With a steel range rod you can feel it begin to grind the powder as it seats, " just touching". STOP! Mark your rod.

From then on you load to the mark. to seat it carefully, you take it down the last couple of inches with your fingers only. Wrap that palm around the muzzle of the barrel, and draw that ramrod down with your fingers, and thumbs. Of course, you probably will need to clean between loads, but so what? If you are into shooting fast and furious, get a semi-auto cartridge gun and have at it. If you are into enjoying the accuracy of a flintlock, as the result of careful and consistent loading, then clean between shots, and load to your mark.

 

[ky_man]

The first time I marked my rod was with a brand new barrel. I wanted to make sure the ball was seated on the powder, so I threw the rod down, then bounced it to ensure there was no air gap. I marked the rod. This is all I have ever seen anyone do. However, my ball/patch combo is so tight, I have to really work hard just to get it to move, and when it does, it moves in 4-5" spurts. There's no way it would go down using my fingers. I could never get it to the point where I could feel it 'grinding' the powder underneath, however I can get it 'just' seated on the powder. I don't know I this is safe, however. I have heard the benefits of packing the load were of questionable benefit, so that's why I asked the first time. I suppose it's better to be safe than to leave a gap. I don't plan on firing a lot of shots in a short while, I just would liek to become good at the best method possible for consistency's sake. I will try a thinner (.015) patch tomorrow at the range.

 

[Tim Clark]

Although what I am about to say will in no way amount to completely explaining the 3/16" that you make up by ramming or bouncing, I will say that I do believe at least some large part of bringing the ramrod mark into alignment with the muzzle can be attributed to mashing the lead ball into a somewhat flattened lead ball. Be careful that this is not wht is actually happening, because that element alone is what can contribute greatly to the groups opening up.

Just my two cents. I've been shooting BP since at least 1979 or so, so maybe that two cents might be worth a nickel or so by now. We'll see.