How to assess an original antique gun?

[Voltigeur_de_la_Garde]

Hello everyone

I had the chance to purchase a firearm that I had long been looking for.
A Russian percussion musket model 1845. It is the first muzzleloader I own, and I really want to shoot it, but
on the other hand I do not want to risk damaging a 170 year old gun. Especially one this rare.
I have not received the parcel yet, so I cannot post any pictures, and the vendor has deleted his from his webshop.
The metal parts look to be in pristine condition and the inside of the barrel, according to the vendor, is just as neat and free from rust/pitting.
There is a very nice looking patina on all the metal parts which, combined with the well preserved markings, I take as proof that they were not excessively sanded or polished, as many 19th century Russian guns were, to the point of making them unsafe to use.
The issue is the stock. It has about 20 filled wormholes, especially around the cheek-rest. But there are no cracks visible anywhere.
At what point do you look at a stock and go "yeah that wont survive the recoil"?

 

[Sam squanch]

We need pictures!! have a gunsmith check the breeching and wormholes in the stock. It may look ok to shoot, but it may have hidden flaws you just can’t see. If the breeching is ok, and the barrel is not excessively pitted, it should be ok to shoot. Most military muskets were very sturdy and will hold up with maintenance. You may want to commission a second stock for shooting if the original stock is too worm eaten.

 

[Rifleman1776]

You cannot expect informed responses without pics. Post when you get the rifle.

 

[Voltigeur_de_la_Garde]

Here some pictures for you to examine

 

[andy52]

The holes don't look that bad from the outside, but it's really difficult to know what the worms did on the inside.
You said that the holes were filled do you know with what? The unfilled holes could be injected with epoxy or superglue and wiped clean.

 

[rich pierce]

I know many here shoot originals, but I’m guessing they are originals that have not been beat up. I have a beater Southern Mountain rifle that just wants to fall apart when I shoot it. First this, then that. It was fun to get it to shoot and develop a load. Now it’s just a wall hanger which it should have been all along.

 

[Sam squanch]

The holes don't look that bad from the outside, but it's really difficult to know what the worms did on the inside

Sounds like my brain! You really need to get one of those bore cameras that attach to your cell phone to check the breech and plug face, and bore condition. Being in Europe, it may even have been plugged or deactivated in some way to prevent it from being shot. Can the nipple be unscrewed?

 

[reddogge]

Whatever you do, don't refinish it. Leave it as is. If you shoot it, shoot a weak charge.

 

[fleener]

nothing says you have to shoot a heavy load in it. Condition of the bore and depth and number of pits is a big thing.

I shoot and own quite a few originals, shotguns and rifles.

I dont know that I saw what cal. is it? Conical or round ball?

I love hunting and shooting old guns. Whacked a black bear this year with a old .73 cal in round ball.

Fleener

 

[Voltigeur_de_la_Garde]

nothing says you have to shoot a heavy load in it. Condition of the bore and depth and number of pits is a big thing.

I shoot and own quite a few originals, shotguns and rifles.

I dont know that I saw what cal. is it? Conical or round ball?

I love hunting and shooting old guns. Whacked a black bear this year with a old .73 cal in round ball.

Fleener

It is a .71 Cal bore
Historically it took a .66 Cal round ball. I only have a .675 mould. Can you recommend a powder charge if I want to shoot for accuracy at 50 meters?

 

[fleener]

I shoot a origianal .73 cal RB with 86 grains of 2 F powder. The ball weights 580 grains. I have hunted with it twice. Knocked a deer off its feet, it got up and ran 50 yards and died. Shot a black bear with it in May. The bear ran 20 yards before it piled up.

My point is that most people would think 86 grains of 2f swiss a light load for that rifle. But IMO it is plenty and the rifle likes it for accuracy.

Give it a go at 70 grains and see what happens as long as the barrel looks to be in good shootable shape.

A couple of years ago I was having some issues with my right shoulder. Could not stand any recoil. I was shooting a .50 cal RB with less then 50 grains of powder. Works just fine.

Fleener

 

[Spillikins]

I don’t know why the OP says there are around 20 worm holes. I would say there are closer to 100, but the photos aren’t very clear.
Basically there is no way of judging the condition of the wood without an x-ray. It could be an absolute disaster under the surface.

 

[MDH]

Here some pictures for you to examine

The brass that can be seen was either cleaned and polished or is a lot newer than the rifle. Basing that on the condition of the barrel, lock and wood.

 

[Relic shooter]

BEST OPTION;
If you wish to 'safely' join the ranks of us folks who collect & shoot original flint & percussion era
firearms it's best to buy from a seller who has the antique arms gunsmithing background to properly evaluate the firearm's suitability for another lifetime of shooting.
Examples TO COMPARE;
My two remaining original Jaegers I recently sold on this forum were made by top notch gunsmiths & had survived in excellent solid original condition showing virtually no signs of mechanical wear, rust or corrosion.
Note; This is not a sales pitch as I'm over the hill retired & have no more Jaegers to sell
NEXT BEST OPTION;
Take the firearm your considering to a ANTIQUE ARMS GUNSMITH for a proper examination & let it be known what your shooting expectations are for accuracy, etc & if the firearm's overall condition is solid enough for another lifetime of shooting.

*Most 'modern' firearm gunsmiths lack the proper skills to properly evaluate the safety & accuracy potential of an antique muzzleloading firearm.
Relic shooter

 

[Voltigeur_de_la_Garde]

BEST OPTION;
If you wish to 'safely' join the ranks of us folks who collect & shoot original flint & percussion era
firearms it's best to buy from a seller who has the antique arms gunsmithing background to properly evaluate the firearm's suitability for another lifetime of shooting.
Examples TO COMPARE;
My two remaining original Jaegers I recently sold on this forum were made by top notch gunsmiths & had survived in excellent solid original condition showing virtually no signs of mechanical wear, rust or corrosion.
Note; This is not a sales pitch as I'm over the hill retired & have no more Jaegers to sell
NEXT BEST OPTION;
Take the firearm your considering to a ANTIQUE ARMS GUNSMITH for a proper examination & let it be known what your shooting expectations are for accuracy, etc & if the firearm's overall condition is solid enough for another lifetime of shooting.

*Most 'modern' firearm gunsmiths lack the proper skills to properly evaluate the safety & accuracy potential of an antique muzzleloading firearm.
Relic shooter

The seller I bought it from exclusively deals with antique firearms. He said the condition of all parts except the stock is very good for their age. He examined the barrel and there are no deep pits or rust according to him. But he is one of those collectors who thinks that any and all antique arms are only for display and not for shooting so his judgement might be different.

 

[Relic shooter]

The seller I bought it from exclusively deals with antique firearms. He said the condition of all parts except the stock is very good for their age. He examined the barrel and there are no deep pits or rust according to him. But he is one of those collectors who thinks that any and all antique arms are only for display and not for shooting so his judgement might be different.

Your 'seller's' statement was a wise decision !!

If the seller isn't well experienced in how to determine if an original flint & percussion firearm is safe to shoot he would be crazy to say otherwise, especially not knowing how experienced the buyer is.
During years that I had a muzzleloading store front I've run into folks who stated they were planning on using
smokeless powder that they had in their muzzleloader just because it was black in color.
TIP;
Never fire an original percussion firearm until new nipples are properly installed !
I've seen nice original percussion guns destroyed because the nipple's vent had been opened-up enough by corrosion
to shear the hammer off & occasionally implanted in the shooter's forehead when fired.
Relic shooter

 

[Voltigeur_de_la_Garde]

Asked

The holes don't look that bad from the outside, but it's really difficult to know what the worms did on the inside.
You said that the holes were filled do you know with what? The unfilled holes could be injected with epoxy

Asked him. He said the holes were filled with a mixture of finely ground sawdust and glue. He also mentioned that the nipple can be unscrewed.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'd scope the interior of the barrel.... if sound, I'd shoot it.

LD

 

[Rudyard]

Not much I can say Russian arms got to the UK after the Crimean War as trophies so they turn up in UK & France . Worms are never welcome buggers but the seller has a point its down to you & its condition if in doubt ' Lef em.' Ide say
Regards Rudyard

 

[andy52]

Asked

Asked him. He said the holes were filled with a mixture of finely ground sawdust and glue. He also mentioned that the nipple can be unscrewed.

That method is just barely a sub-surface fix but is better than nothing. There is just simply no way to know the interior damage.