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How to handle frizzen rebound

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bchannell

40 Cal.
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May 19, 2010
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I took your all's advice and worked on my Large Siler, and everything is working as it should. I'm getting more/better spark, and I have around 2# 10oz of spring force on the frizzen, so flint life should be as good as can be. The only thing I see wrong is the frizzen will rebound back sometimes. It doesn't really seem to hit with enough rebound force to damage the flint, so I've left it alone, but I know there is a way to handle this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. After pouring thru past posts, I've come to the conclusion that I could take some metal off the forward toe of the frizzen, that stops it's forward movement when firing, and it would maybe fix the rebound. Is this a good idea? or are there better ways of solving this problem.
thanks, in advance!
 
When the frizzen ends up sitting atop the flint are you sure it had rebounded or might it be that the frizzzen hadn't toggled over? Different fixes for either.....Fred
 
If it's rebounding then the spring force is too light or the upper spring leaf isn't high enough. When the frizzen is open, is there free play w/ the frizzen? The only time I had a rebound problem w/ a Siler lock was when the spring force was too light. I use the large and deluxe Silers that are made by Chambers on 95% of the builds and have not altered the frizzen springs..... they work just fine out of the box....Fred
 
I'm curious about spring balance. I lightened the frizzen spring to ~3#, and now I get intermittent rebound. I'm guessing the hammer spring is around 30-40#, which I think is way too much. What are your thoughts on what they should be?
 
The portion of metal forward of the pivot Screw/pin is referred to as the TOE. It acts like a doorstop when the frizzen is opened.

If you remove metal from the underside of the TOE, it will allow the frizzen to come forward further, so that the center of gravity of the frizzen is further forward of the pivot. The frizzen will not rebound, if it is allowed to go forward enough. You should be able to file metal off the bottom of the TOE, but if the toe is hardened, use a grinder to remove the metal.

The TOE IS DECORATIVE, and really has no actual function.

If the toes is rebounding because the fit between the bridle and the Lock plate of the lock is loose, then make a small leather washer just thick( thin) enough to fill the gab between the lock plate and the frizzen, and put a hole in the center. Now, run the pivot pin/screw through the hole before the pin enters the frizzen. The leather will act as a " brake" for the frizzen, and will keep it from flopping back to hit your flint. The Leather washer should NOT be made so thick that it interferes with the frizzen popping open when hit by the flint. Be sure to oil the leather washer every time you oil the pivot pin as part of your standard maintenance. If its been awhile since you fired the gun, all the contact points, including the leather washer, and pivot need fresh oiling. Then flush the oil remaining in the barrel, powder chamber, if the gun has one, and flash channel using alcohol, to dissolve and pour out the oils. Dry the alcohol and remove the rest of the oil. Now the gun is ready to fire. :thumbsup:
 
Get a new frizzen spring and leave it alone. Who made your lock ?....Fred
 
rrrr Paul, you are 100% wrong on all counts.

You got this poor soul into this problem by advising him to lighten his frizzen spring in the first place. Now you are adding to his problems with a huge load of :bull:

Bobber, sorry to say lad but you lightened your frizz. spring too much as Fred said. Your best fix is to purchase a new spring, install it and leave it alone. Spring balance? You bet, very important. Your Siler lock is among the best and those springs were designed to work together and should only be tweaked by an experienced smith who knows what he is doing and why he is doing it and knows when to stop.

As long as we are on the subject, the toe is the protrusion on the bottom of the frizzen that contacts the frizzen spring. The curlyque "pig tail" forward of the pan cover is called the stop. It is not there simply for decoration. Every part on a flint lock has a purpose. When you change any one thing even a little bit it has an effect on the way the rest of the parts work in relation with each other.

Leather washers, brass shims, changing the shape of parts (grinding and/or filing your main spring) is not the fix for this lock. Fix the root problem which is a weak frizzen spring, buy some extra flints and go shoot your gun.
 
Ok, just a few notes here to calm this down. I have been gunsmithing cartridge guns for over thirty years, so I didn't go into this blind. I purchased two frizzen springs before I started this, (a good gunsmith always has a backup plan if things go south!), so it's easy to put things right. I wanted to experiment with some judicious lightening of springs to see if it really does improve flint life, and function.
Anyway, I'm not getting rebound with a new flint in the gun, but I want to play with it for a while. Someone, previous to me, had heated and bent the frizzen spring, and it broke on me. No big deal, I bought two new ones, one to experiment with and one to keep in reserve. I couldn't find a mainspring right away, so no tinkering with one til I can find one.
I appreciate everyone's help and concern, but sometimes the best way to learn is to just jump in and try something and see what happens, if it doesn't work I've got the stuff to put it back to the way it was before.
Now even though I've worked on guns for years, they were not flintlocks, so this is a bit new to me. It SEEMS to me that they are pretty heavy springs, much heavier than need be. BUT not being a flintlock expert, I will have to bow to experience. Now if it was a 1911, or Colt single actioin, or Remmy rifle, or..... well you get the picture.
Please remember, I take full responsibilty for my own tinkering, no one held a gun to my head. If it goes south I'll fix it.
Thanks again to all!
 
You are right! It is interesting to see if you can improve " Things" and why and how they work!
I do the same and also have a back up plan - the great thing on this forum is that we have a lot of guys with their own experience - right or wrong is not really the importance - it helps me to think and get imput which helps me to tackle my taskes in a better way - I had a lock which did not spark ( new) in this case, even though I was very interested in finding out why - I just sent it back and got it fixed and sent back from the company in no time - now it is a great lock ( they replaced the frizzen) - could I have tinkered with it and fixed it? probably - but they are the experts and I am not .... If it would have been a used one I would have tried to reharden the frizzen, as I thought this was the problem in the first place but I am glad I had all the opinions I could get before desiding....
 
Your flintlock needs that heavy mainspring to drive the flint into the frizzen which has enough spring resistance to the hammer to really let the hammercock friction scrape those glowing metal embers into the pan. Too little frizzen spring resistance means less sparks. Not enough hammercock speed means less sparks.............But maybe I'm wrong................Bob
 
"right or wrong is not really the importance"

Aha, it is very important. A lot of people visit this site. They may not be familiar with the questions or the um, some of the guys who pose as experts who are not, who give off- the- cuff bad advise. :cursing: In this case the right way for Bobber to fix his problem is not to use leather washers and cobble up a nice Siler lock. Also the terminology used by Paul is incorrect and his statement that the frizzen stop (in capital letters no less) is only decorational could actually be believed by an unsuspecting lurker.

Coincidentally I have two locks on my bench today that were sent to me by guys who were trying to fix somethiing on their locks that wasn't broken in the first place and screwed them up to the point where they would not work. When they wouldn't work they startedd "fixing" the wrong thing to repair it and screwed that up too. Now I am starting from the ground up on both of them at $**.00 per hour to get them back into working order. They will both be done today and in the mail back home.

How many people see these posts and say "I'm gonna try that on my lock" only to find out that the fellow posting didn't have the quallifications, knowledge or experience to post in the first place. Two glasses of wine, the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook and a keyboard do not an expert make.

If Bobber wants to experiment with spring balance that is his business. That's how we learn about these things and he is smart enough to have a backup spring. My concern is with the casual reader who may be having a similar problem and gets bad ideas from a good forum like this one.

L. Dog
 
It's generally amazing to me that folks come to forums to get advice from people they know nothing about. Why does nobody consult the maker of a product they are having trouble with? Do we really think the guys who designed our locks, had all the parts cast, assembled, and heat treated, know a lot less than some dudes who hang out here? Rhetorical question.
 
It is no coincidence that only sergeants had "fine" turnscrews in the armies around the time of issue flintlocks and removing of a lock by a soldier was a flogging offense.

Dremel - keeping gunsmiths in business since 1932.
 
Oh, I dunno, it's not all that surprising. Try calling Ruger and asking about improving the trigger pull, or accuracy of the 10/22. Then go to the rimfire forums and ask. You'll get much better info on the forum, and none from Ruger.
That's what forums are for, in large part. You just have to use some judgment with the advice you get, weigh it against your own experience and take your best shot, so to speak.
As I said before, I take full responsibility for tinkering, and if it all goes south, I'll buy a new lock and learn a lesson, but I seriously doubt it will come to that. More likely, I'll learn from you all, and from the work I've done.
Everything is an improvement on something else. Horses are an improvement on walking, cars are an improvement on horses. God made chert, you improved it to use in weapons. Electric is an improvement on candles,....etc. It's our way, we hunter/gatherers are also improvers. They don't always work, but we keep trying.
It is pretty cool that we're all passionate about a four centuries old invention,...now that's amazing.
 
Sorry, but lightening springs DOESN'T cause rebounding. :cursing: You are entitled to your opinions, of course, but I don't need your :bull: You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, Nor do you understand basic principles of leverage, and balance. Rebounding is SOLELY a function of poor lock design. A review of the article in the Journal of armsmaking technology on The Golden Mean will assure you of these facts.

If this poster wants some help, he can send me a PT, and I will help him through this problem, too. Pictures would be a great help. Seeing the lock in my own hands would be the best.
 
"...You obviously have no idea what you are talking about"


:youcrazy: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:



How come it didn't rebound BEFORE he lightened his frizz. spring? Now it does.... :blah:
 
"Rebounding is SOLELY a function of poor lock design"

So now you are also saying that the Siler is a poor lock design. I think there are about half a million people who will disagree.

Now, my momma warned me to never argue with children, drunks or other mens wives. You may say whatever you want at this point but I am done.

Mr. L. Dog
 
Since I didn't see the Frizzen or the Spring before he did whatever he did, and I didn't see what he did to lighten the spring, I can't answer your question. If his lock was like many, the Frizzen may not have opened at all, when fired.

Rebounding is related to the fit of the frizzen to the pivot screw/pin. Most modern locks have a Frizzen BRIDLE that allows a screw/pin to be driven into the bridle from the backside of the Lock Plate. Some few locks are still offered that have NO Bridle, and rely on the strength of the Screw/pin that is screwed into the Lockplate from the outside of the frizzen.

If those pin/screws are Loose, or too tight, you have problems with the frizzen movement, regardless of how much tension is applied by the Frizzen spring. If the frizzen is poorly fitted to the bridle so that there is sideways "SLOP" or play between the side of the frizzen, and the lockplate, the frizzen can flop around, regardless of the amount of Tension of the Frizzen Spring, moving both back and forward, and side to side.

I have seen pivot pins that were both rusted and bent causing frizzens not to move correctly. I have seen pivot screws that were loose, and only needed to be turned in, oiled, and a few small burrs removed between the lock plate and the inside edge of the frizzen to get the frizzen working properly. I examined one older lock that had lots of play in the frizzen, side to side, because someone had replaced the original factory frizzen with another- reason unknown-- that simply was too small in width for the bridle. It would have required shims between the frizzen and the lock plate, and another between the frizzen and bridle to keep it centered inside the bridle.

I have seen a couple of locks where the hole for the pivot pin/screw was too large from the size of the pin/screw, and there was excess movement both sideways, and up and down as the frizzen was handled, so that the frizzen did not seal the flash pan well at all. Both frizzens flopped around alot, and even occasionally bound up because they twisted when they moved, and any dirt that got onto the pin allowed the frizzen to turn a bit sideways, and rub against the pin front and back. When those pins were removed, you could see where edges of the frizzen were rubbing grooves in the pin.

So, there are lots of reasons for the frizzen to "flop", that have nothing to do with frizzen spring tension.

I will repeat this again. The SOLE job of any frizzen spring is to keep the frizzen closed, when your point the muzzle of the gun Down, vertically, towards the ground. And this is only needed to keep your flash powder in the flash pan.

Once that idea sinks in, the entire reason for changing how the spring tension is transmitted to the frizzen becomes intuitive.

The problem with "solutions" is that there are a variety of badly designed flintlocks out there. No one solution works on all of them. The " Fix" has to be designed to deal with design problems for the individual lock. Since the Cock and its flint are what open the frizzen, some of the design problems occur in the length or height of the cock, sometimes in the relative distance from the cock's tumbler pivot, to the flash pan, compared to the height of the pan, and other locks have frizzens with too much length and resulting weight behind the pivot point.

In some, you find that the toe is little more than a lump of metal forward of the pivot point, and that over the years that the lock has been made, casting molds have been changed, and the Lump has become bigger and bigger. Other than removing casting seam burrs, lock companies do little to correct the shape, size, and balance of the toe in relation to the rest of the frizzen.

The Golden Mean Proportion, and a pair of dividers is a great way to figure out where the problems lie in a given lock.
 
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