How traditional are you?

[Gene L]

Think you better define what is TRADITIONAL!

Well, the header on this board says "Keeping Tradition Alive." It wisely doesn't define "tradition" and I'm not going to either. Some things don't need to defined by a narrow set of terms which others, if they're so inclined, can peck away at. It's a personal thing each person can define for him/her own self, not a law. You decide your own personal definition.

 

[SgtErv]

All over the board...

When I go to Prickett's Fort to interpret, it's 80% period. (20% owes to the facts that I do have a few machine stitches, and car keys and other 'normal people stuff' in a linen bag in a haversack; I also get cold water from the water fountain in my canteen). We usually eat from meals cooked over a hearth, etc.

Shooting trips I wear modern clothes but use period gear pretty much throughout. I shoot at modern targets.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Warning...., I'm in a "wordy mood" this morning...more than usual...

Hmmm, Traditional means in the dictionary,

"Existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established......produced, done, or used in accordance with tradition....habitually done, used, or found."

But that's still subjective. Fixed ammunition in breech loaders goes back about 140-150 years, right?...., some would say that's "long established", thought the main propellant switched from black powder to what we use today. Yet we are not talking about them on this forum, because we modify "traditional" with "muzzleloader"...

Yet, the not-to-be named rifles are muzzleloaders, and can use black powder, and could be made to use caps instead of modern primers (some of the first ones did [iirc]), while at the same time although the material may be from modern, petro chemicals, they overall conform to shapes that are more than a century old....so again we are subjective in what we mean, right?

So I wonder about a better word for what we use. Obsolete is accurate, but rather broad, for it still pertains to the oldest of the fixed ammunition rifles and guns. We do use obsolete tech. Antiquated is a bit better perhaps. It is a word similar to "antique", and in the vast majority of States our replica arms are considered "antique" firearms. This word seems less applicable to black powder, cartridge guns.

Anachronistic comes from "anachronism", and that is:

"Something or someone that is not in its correct historical or chronological time, especially a thing or person that belongs to an earlier time."

So that's seems to fit well. We are that when simply using a flintlock or caplock at the range or in the field, and especially when dressing and carrying gear patterned after the tech and styles of a couple of centuries in the past, again at the range or in the field.., So maybe we should explain ourselves as using antiquated or anachronistic tech? I think the latter might prompt some follow up questions from folks, which might be a good thing. On the other hand maybe it's not such a big deal to need a change. :grin:

ANYWAY..., finished my digression...., it's up to each of us how much we want to delve into trying the old tech. It's all about the enjoyment we derive from out experience with the older stuff. I have found that I get the most enjoyment when I hunt with a flinter, and nearly as much with one of my caplocks.


:idunno:

LD

 

[Keb]

I've been doing this stuff a while now and I find myself doing less and less as I get older and older. I still attend a couple rondyvoos a year which pretty loosly adhere to the pre-1840 rule. I don't cook in camp unless I'm almost starving. I make coffee on a propane burner and frequent the food purveyors for a prepared meal daily. I sleep on a soft mattress in a full-sized bed. I only shoot flint smoothbores and stick bows when I shoot, usually only ones I've made. I don't hunt any more but if I did, I'd also use a smoothbore. I see nothing wrong with hunting out of a stand or wearing modern hunting attire. So in answering the "a thru f" thing, I might be a mix of "b" and "d" at times. I'm never an "a" or "c" or "e" or "f" the way it's worded in the O.P. I never have or never will re-enact any of the wars or battles some people re-enact. I've done it for real and just don't care to pretend doing it for fun.
I'll also add I do this for fun. If it's not fun, I just pack up and head for home.

 

[Jumpshot]

Think you better define what is TRADITIONAL!

Well, the header on this board says "Keeping Tradition Alive." It wisely doesn't define "tradition" and I'm not going to either. Some things don't need to defined by a narrow set of terms which others, if they're so inclined, can peck away at. It's a personal thing each person can define for him/her own self, not a law. You decide your own personal definition.

I assume this is directed at me, since I'm the one who asked. You say you aren't going to define traditional, yet you already did in the OP, as I showed in the quote of your post earlier. Here it is again:

Choices are (completely subjective)

a. Not very, I'll shoot any ML rifle (except inlines) wearing bluejeans and using BP or substitutes. Cap locks are fine.

b. A little more traditional...I use BP and round balls, but don't dress up for it

c. Pretty traditional...I strike fires with flint and steel, stick strictly to flintlocks, will wear mixed clothing and gear, what ever's handy. I know what a rondezvous is, but only go there to buy equipment.

And apparently others seem to agree with you, as I showed in the subsequent quotes.

In fact, here's another one that came along later:

Mostly (e ), but I do shoot percusion

I'm not pecking away at anything, I'm asking about something you and others have posted. That is, after all, the whole point of this thread. I was always under the impression that traditional muzzleloaders included those up to and including the Civil War. But it seems some, including yourself, think the cut-off for the 'traditional' period is the invention of the caplock. It seems to me that separating flintlock and caplock into traditional or non-traditional is what's pecking away at definitions, not me just for asking.

I'm just surprised to see people here regard caplocks as non-traditional muzzleloaders. It's fine with me if that's the definition of 'traditional' for some, I was only asking for clarification on it. Perhaps I've been wrong about what the word means all this time.

 

[Gene L]

Jeeze, it wasn't addressed to you, it was in fact addressed to Horner, which should be clear as his was the post I quoted. It's at the top of the message. Who are the "people" who regard cap locks as non-traditional? I must have missed them.

Not every post is addressed to you, which you assume. I think you're looking to be a victim of something.

 

[Jumpshot]

Jeeze, it wasn't addressed to you, it was in fact addressed to Horner, which should be clear as his was the post I quoted. It's at the top of the message. Who are the "people" who regard cap locks as non-traditional? I must have missed them.

Not every post is addressed to you, which you assume. I think you're looking to be a victim of something.

lol I know who you were quoting. I'm not looking to be a victim of anything. Okay, I was wrong to assume that comment was directed at me. I figured it was, since I brought up the issue. My fault for making that assumption.

Anyway, regarding the "who", I already showed you that with several quotes, bolded in red. In fact, I showed you yours twice. I'm not sure how you could have missed them.

 

[Elkeater]

I don't want to go too traditional and get stuck with an arrow, and lose my hair.

 

[Gene L]

Jump, please show where anyone on this board declared cap lock rifles as "not traditional."

There is a sliding scale on the age/period of rifles we shoot. Flintlocks are the oldest TYPE of rifle you see at shoots, (except for matchlock shoots, which I don't know of any) and are almost exclusively seen at rendezvous. Because of the environment, a cap lock would be out of place and not traditional to those circumstances. For that period, flinters are the most traditional. In civil war reenactors, cap locks are the most traditional.

At the Alvin York shoot, you'll see mostly cap lock rifles with men wearing overalls and neckties. But not exclusively. Flintlocks can be seen there, and probably are, since it's inclusive of any side-lock muzzle loader. Cap locks are most traditional to that period the organizers are paying homage to.

When it comes to guns, the term traditional can not stand alone...it has to have life-styles with it to bear any meaning. I thought that was kinda the point of my OP. And I said the scale was purely subjective.

 

[Jumpshot]

Jump, please show where anyone on this board declared cap lock rifles as "not traditional."

I didn't say anyone declared such. I said it seems some people consider it so, and I posted the relevant quotes. I was only asking for clarification of that.

Flintlocks are the oldest TYPE of rifle you see at shoots, (except for matchlock shoots, which I don't know of any) and are almost exclusively seen at rendezvous. Because of the environment, a cap lock would be out of place and not traditional to those circumstances. For that period, flinters are the most traditional.

That's what I was looking for. You're referring to rendezvous in particular. So that makes sense. I thought the whole whole thing was about how traditional you are in general, whether hunting or anything else. Now I've got the context. Thanks for explaining it. :thumbsup:


Edit: My apologies if I seemed confrontational about it, that wasn't my intent. I guess I just missed the point of the question. I take the blame for that. My fault.

 

[bubba.50]

I don't shoot flintlocks because I just don't like'em. I don't shoot roundballs much because to me they're a lot of fuss & bother compared to I can pan lube ever how many conicals I figger to need in any situation, pop one in the muzzle, ram'er home & shoot without messin' with greasy patches assemblin' everything at the muzzle, carryin' short starters, doin' all that swabbin 'tween shots & on & on.

and anybody so snobby as to look down on my ways as "untraditional & wrong" is likely a person I wouldn't wanta shoot with anyhow.

 

[Jumpshot]

I don't see anything wrong with that. Conicals are traditional, too. Not for purposes of rendezvous, of course, but in the broader sense they are.

 

[tenngun]

I sure don't see any thing wrong about what you shoot. Ned Roberts book shooting the cap lock rifle was well concerned with that. It was our fist ML bible. That's as historic and traditional as an F&I woodsman impression.
Our dates on 'periods' are purely arbitrary. Our 'Civil War' 1861-65 started in the 1850s and lived on until the 1880s. The FandI 1754-1763 stated about 1690 and lasted until 1770s while the AWI could be said to have started during the F&I and continued till 1815.
The same can be said for the Texas Revolution or the MM period or about any time frame.
We may not be able to say what art is but we know it when we see it. Traditional the same way. We can tell right off when we see a real pirate impression and when we see a Jack Sparrow want a be.
But let's not go to far off the rails. We are just boys playing Cowboys and Indians here.

 

[azmntman]

B describes me best.

I do own an unmentionable but it has not been fired since 2001 (trophy tag on N Rim (1% draw rate).

I now would leave it behind and take a side lock no questions....in fact I think I will sell it and put $ towards my NW trade gun? :grin:

 

[Tom Compton]

C. But without the fire starting. No big woods to trek in. Leases are oft times less than 1,000 acres. Now days always w a flintlock, BP and PRB.
TC

 

[Grumpa]

We are a moon cast shadow.

That sentence, my friend, is eloquent. :hatsoff:

"We are just boys, playing Cowboys and Indians here." How true. Grownup boys, to be sure, with more skill, experience and money to put into our game, but boys nonetheless. Some of what we do prepares us, at least mentally, for the day (hopefully, never) when we really do meet up with those scalp hunters. And it sure beats hanging out in the bars, or watching endless commercials on TV.

Gene L, Thanks for this thread. I fall a-b. Never got into re-enacting, neither the time nor the money to do it right. I admire those who do. Imagination is the very Soul of what we all do. I also admire greatly, all of you who have the skills to build, make, weave etc. all the things we use. You are the Heart of what we do.

I would be too embarrassed to ratio the time I spend on this Forum to the time I actually go shooting, but my time here is well spent. And I am in good company. :hatsoff:

Richard/Grumpa


Richard/Grumpa

 

[BrownBear]

I'm as basic as your ABC's, but as I see fit.

No events closer than over $1,000 in plane fares, rental cars and hotels, so I have to hoist my own flag.

I refuse to get all hide bound because once upon a time there was one straight razor on a fur company manifest. Had a beard over 40 years and proud of it. Hair is long, too, and stand a little closer when you criticize.

I'm more interested in the techniques, materials and technology that were available back then than making myself a dummy for hanging museum pieces that make no sense for my location. When something dusty in a Wyoming museum doesn't work in wet Alaska, I'll use my hands and their materials to fashion something that works. In my mind, a fur trapper in the Rockies would do the self-same thing if he got onto a ship for Alaska and his usual gear was as worthless as a woman's corset for living in Alaska.

 

[jethro224]

Sorta D.
Almost E.
Sometimes...

d. WAY traditional when shooting and get in character. I dress in period garb, attend rondezvous regularly in period dress, refer to others as "hoss" and myself as "this child." Sleep in a tipi and knap my own flints. Might wear a capote.

e. All the way when I'm in character. No prepared foods in camp, use only knives as eating utensils, smoke clay pipes, wear linen or leather clothing and drink clear liquor.

I don't refer to others as "Hoss" nor myself as "this child". I sleep in a lean-to or diamond. Knap my own flints when they're dull but not when they are still just rocks. Might wear a matchcoat but not a capote.
I will eat prepared foods, might even use a fork. I smoke a clay pipe at juried events but prefer cigarettes if they are allowed. I'll drink your clear liquor if you pass me your jar but the liquor I brought is most likely dark rum.
Oh, every now and again I still take my GPR caplock out and shoot it. And I usually hunt wearing modern clothes, but sometimes dress period. About half of the non-rondy shoots I attend are in modern clothing.

 

[pab1]

Somewhere between B and C, depending on the weather, my mood, the alignment of the stars, tea leaves, or sun spots.

That's about where I fall too.

I don't want to go too traditional and get stuck with an arrow, and lose my hair.

I'd take that reality over our current one any day! :wink:

 

[Cowboy]

Sorta D.
Almost E.
Sometimes...

d. WAY traditional when shooting and get in character. I dress in period garb, attend rondezvous regularly in period dress, refer to others as "hoss" and myself as "this child." Sleep in a tipi and knap my own flints. Might wear a capote.

e. All the way when I'm in character. No prepared foods in camp, use only knives as eating utensils, smoke clay pipes, wear linen or leather clothing and drink clear liquor.

I don't refer to others as "Hoss" nor myself as "this child". I sleep in a lean-to or diamond. Knap my own flints when they're dull but not when they are still just rocks. Might wear a matchcoat but not a capote.
I will eat prepared foods, might even use a fork. I smoke a clay pipe at juried events but prefer cigarettes if they are allowed. I'll drink your clear liquor if you pass me your jar but the liquor I brought is most likely dark rum.
Oh, every now and again I still take my GPR caplock out and shoot it. And I usually hunt wearing modern clothes, but sometimes dress period. About half of the non-rondy shoots I attend are in modern clothing.

For my 10 years of shooting Traditional Muzzleloader's, I was a lone wolf shooting by myself in my secluded little corner of Illinois. Everything I knew about BP shooting was either self taught or corresponding with others on the web. I dressed in modern clothing and still do when I am alone shooting at my range.

It was because of this forum that my whole world of BP shooting has changed! Got to corresponding with Jethro and he graciously came down to my area to shoot with me. He had also brought down one of his flinter's to shoot for my very first time. Up until that point I only shot caplock's. I had also just bought me a flinter and he showed me how to shoot and maintain mine.

He also invited me to shoot at one of his monthly shoots. He introduced me to alot of his friends. All great folks. Each and every one of them! They lent me traditional cloths to wear for the spring shoot at Friendship and Jethro brought me along with him.

At Friendship he introduced me to even more of his friends. Got to experience what it was like to wear traditional clothing and hang around in that kind of setting. And YES I also got to experience the campfire at night with the bottle's getting handed around. An experience I'll never forget, or maybe I have? :haha:

Since then I have put together a couple sets of traditional cloths that I like to wear when we attend the monthly BP shoot's at Leroy IL. I love to go to them and can't wait to see my new friends when I'm there. I'm not the lone wolf anymore!

In conclusion: I have always loved shooting my muzzleloader's either by myself or now with my new friends. Nothing has changed there. What has changed is the many hands on learning opportunities of the many different aspects that this way of life has to offer. A new door has opened and Jethro and his friends are leading me through it. I would say that this story ends with a happy ending, but this is only the beginning! I thank god for Jethro and my new found friends. :grin:

Respectfully, Cowboy