Hudson Valley Fowlers Builders Nook

[godutch]

Once upon a time (late 80's thru the 90's) I'd set out to put HVFowlers on the builders map. Not just for myself but to make the possibility viable for others. Very early on only Kit Ravenshear and myself were involved. KR building just one for a customer which he called "a silly long gun". And myself determined to put them back on the map so to speak. I went to Dixons and met him there and swapped notes. We were both reshaping and altering existing (wrong) available furniture to try to make things work. In the intervening years I've seen from time to time HVF's turning up which I personally regard as a measure of success in promoting awareness of the type, and by the way, 'hat's off' to those who've tackled the not so simple logistics of building what can easily be described as an expensive and difficult build. That being said, I thought I'd open a thread here just for those looking for info. insights, etc. from those who've been down that road in the hope's that it smooth's their way a bit. Cheers, Fred

 

[godutch]

I'll start it off with my bbl. specs. taken from originals that 'held well'. While my leg work was done long before the internet etc. I did have the unique advantage of actually holding and pointing originals and only taking bbl. specs. from the good ones. Those specs. are reflected in the bbls. made for me by Ben Coogle years ago.

 

[godutch]

A quick ps. these alterations are mine applied to Don Getz's Brown Bess bbl. in his 1990 pamphlet but as I said, Ben Coogle did the bbls. The first taper from the breech is unchanged, the second taper is - .070 thinner 2 ft. out from there, and the third taper is .025 thinner 38" out. My straight 'waist' sections have a .050 wall thickness. I would not go any thinner than that. Again, these reflect originals that 'held well' and is what I've used. Any adjustments to LOA of the bbl. is done on the waist only. Never the tapers where the pressure is.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Fred,
I think there are quite a few folks that love these guns. Rich Pierce has a thread in the "Gunbuilder's Bench" section about making one. I know Ken Gahagan and Mike Brooks made very nice versions. I think we are fortunate today in that we can get pretty good cast hardware from the Rifle Shoppe and also I believe Mike Brooks is selling cast hardware based on original pieces. The Rifle Shoppe also has part sets for Dutch locks. The biggest obstacle is always the barrels and a desire to make guns that long. Thank you for sharing your information. I suspect this thread will flourish.

dave

 

[godutch]

Thanks Dave, It was Rich Pierce's posts that finally gave me the poke in the ribs to finally start something like this, which is my own fault for poking him in the ribs since it'd been a year since he said he was starting a HVF and the then 'lines went dead'. And yes, Ken and Mike have made some really nice ones I'm happy to say. I just picked up a square backed Dutch t/guard from mike a few mos. ago. That HVF furniture from The Rifle Shoppe comes from masters I'd made back in the early 90 's, 'made my own rubber molds, poured my own waxes, and Jess cast them. Then I sent him the masters and he made permanent molds and put them in his catalogue. So that's where they came from. They were all made from wire mandrels and bondo based on tracings from original HVF's. I really need to post a more detailed description of each one someday. His 1710 Dutch lock is the only one I've ever used as it's such an iconic Dutch style. 'How 'bout dat ! Cheers, Fred

 

[godutch]

'Some bbl. info. I'd neglected to mention in the above, and the most critical re: balance in a very long gun. A: you can only take so much material out of a bbl. safely. B; the offset to the weight of that long bbl. is to build weight in from the forearm rearward. The closer to you the better. My HVF (that I finally built for myself) has a 60" bbl. using the specs originally posted. It is 6' 5" long with a 14" pull, wght. 9.5 lbs. and balances right in the middle of the forearm. Point it, and the lenght disappears. Other than that it's like walking thru the woods carrying a 10 lb. flyrod.

 

[godutch]

HVF FURNITURE observations: This is TRS's catalogue from 2002 with the patterns I'd done back in the 90's and still being offered. Their website has no pics. so I put this up to maybe help out. So, lets begin; BP1 is a really nice standard sized b/plate in the Dutch style but too small for a fully proportioned HVF. Likewise BP2 is also more suited to a standard sized fowler although with an English type tang. Notice all four b/plates have a pronounced 'heel' which appears to have been a feature the Dutch used (in addition to others). Moving on to BP3, This is the b/plate I used for my stock pattern. This one will get you a full proportioned HVF. So why does it have an English tang ? Because 3 of the originals I took rubbings from had that style tang and it's a much more forgiving 'inlet'. 'Call me lazy. BP4 is huge, and is also taken from an original. The largest proportioned HVF I had the great fortune to document (it was barrel heavy but pretty). I modeled BP4's master so that it could easily be shortened and narrowed a bit and it does have that nice Dutch styles tang. If you're laying out a stock profile, mind the b/plate dimensions closely as it will affect your options re: that 'fishbelly' feature should you choose to incorporate that in your design. Now on to T/GUARDS: TG1 and TG2 are mine and both in full Dutch style. The bow dimensios are from originals, The front and rear tangs are my own and were done quite 'wide' in nature owing to my observations back then re: the weight offset of a long bbl. and therefor overall balance. I was looking to add weight. They will work for you just fine as is since most often the HVF will have a large breech, a large lock, and therefor a full proportion to that whole area. If you might desire to narrow and reshape those tangs the material is there. TG3 is not mine. This is a Reeve's Gohringe t/guard and a very nice one at that. I use it on what I refer to as my little Dutch fowler. I believe it could be used on a full HVF but I leave that to the designer. THE SIDEPLATE; This is a typical 'vine' type' sideplate used predominately on early to mid 18c HVF's and IMHO slowly being replaced over time by solid sideplates. There is enough material on this casting to customise should the builder see fit. A look thru the vine type sideplates in Grinslade's book will show no two alike. It does assume a large lock so verify your lock choice against the sideplate dimensions. Having said all that, go to Mike Brook's site under castings and he has there I believe 4 different t/guard and 1 b/plate Dutch castings that you should investigate. I don't know of any others at this point (?). If you do, by all means please share that info. here. To quote Winston Churchill "There's nothing we can't accomplish, as long as we don't care who gets the credit". Cheers, Fred

 

[godutch]

Some pics for 'scale' . BP2 on a 'little rifle', BP1 and 3, TG 2 and3

 

[godutch]

Well, I screwed that up a bit....,left pic bp3 is on the left and bp1 is on the right. Next pic, tg3 is on the left and tg2 on the right. Top pic w/bp2 is OK. 'Sorry about that...!

 

[Rudyard]

Don't apologise any you clearly know your long fowlers. I made a' Swan gun' once not as long as your or the desired (If not by me personally ) H V fowlers You' thought out side of the box' I admire that. I like the roach belly Cape Dutch muskets not quite the same thing but pretty unique & colourful history .
Regards Rudyard

 

[godutch]

Don't apologise any you clearly know your long fowlers. I made a' Swan gun' once not as long as your or the desired (If not by me personally ) H V fowlers You' thought out side of the box' I admire that. I like the roach belly Cape Dutch muskets not quite the same thing but pretty unique & colourful history .
Regards Rudyard

Thank's for the compliment and the 'pass' on the posting hiccup. Anytime you see one of those HVF's pulled off nicely means someone put a lot of work into what they were going to do, and how they were going to do it, before they did it. Cheers!

 

[dave_person]

Hi Fred,
The reason Rich's "line went dead" is because he moved from Missouri to Vermont and is still setting up his new shop.

dave

 

[rich pierce]

I needed a cattle prod, so thanks. I’m finishing an English trade gun in the next couple weeks and the HVF is next to get going.

FIRST STEPS. Inletting the 54” round,12 ga barrel will take a bit of careful work. One of the challenges with hand inletting long thin barrels is that they are flexy. I will trim a 3/4” dowel to put in the bore to stiffen it and provide a handle for the muzzle end.

PARTS. I ordered some furniture from TRS but they were out of stock on several items. I may end up modifying or peening out a buttplate from sheet brass.
I got hand-formed, ribbed, thin brass thimbles from Mike Lea. These are expensive but they have no equal as far as I know. I will hand cut the sideplate from thick flat brass stock, and fabricate the trigger and trigger plate.
HVF1 in Grinslade’s fowler book, scaled down, will be my basis for this build. I will closely follow that architecture.

 

[godutch]

I'm loving those RR pipes ! I've already made a note out in the shop about those. 'Looks like I'm the first guy to benefit from this thread I started to help out other guys. Thanks for sharing. And, I'd neglected to mention the sheet brass option when I put up the B/Plate info. Thanks for mentioning that too.

 

[rich pierce]

Here are buttplates and guards I have on hand. Obviously bought a while ago. These are Reeves Goehring castings.

 

[godutch]

Reeve's castings have been copied over the years. 'Not uncommon. That first t/guard in your pics is TRS's BP1 for instance. And on MB's castings his Dutch B/plate measures just like BP3 (mine) from TRS. The square backed T/guard looks just like the one I just bought from Mike. Personally I not only don't care about such things, but if someone had the inclination to buy one, morph it into a different Dutch styled iteration and had it cast and offered up for sale as another accurate option, I'd encourage it. I never made a dime off of my patterns and pay full price at TRS just like everyone else. Jess still has my patterns lurking around his shop I'd guess. The old shrunk up rubber molds I'd originally made back in the early 90's reside on the floor under a workbench in my shop to this day, which is why I've always kept at least 1 of ea. casting on hand should it ever become necessary to 're-invent' the wheel.

 

[godutch]

Due to my abbreviating Hudson Valley Fowler down to HVFowler this thread wouldn't show up when doing a search on these guns. Merriweather just straightened that out for me/us so a big thank you to our admin. This thread is for anyone who wants to contribute or avail themselves of the content. A more thourough preamble is there in the first post. Thanks all...!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Great info Fred, thank! Now, would you call a HVF as a variation of a Club Butt?

Mike Brooks once chastised me on here (when he used to post ... ) when there was a discussion involving HVFs, Club Butts and French Fusil de Boucaniers (as I had a 54" barreled 66-cal FdB made of TRS parts by the late John Bosh). But Mike never clarified if they all are or were of a similar type or family tree or just all different schools/type/families/lineage, etc., but all just with 'heavy butts' or not ...

 

[2 shots]

godutch, are you the gent i was speaking to about HVF at the boulton market faire in pa. ??

 

[godutch]

Great info Fred, thank! Now, would you call a HVF as a variation of a Club Butt?

Mike Brooks once chastised me on here (when he used to post ... ) when there was a discussion involving HVFs, Club Butts and French Fusil de Boucaniers (as I had a 54" barreled 66-cal FdB made of TRS parts by the late John Bosh). But Mike never clarified if they all are or were of a similar type or family tree or just all different schools/type/families/lineage, etc., but all just with 'heavy butts' or not ...

Different schools altogether IMHO. 'Best way to determine for yourself is to avail yourself of Grinslade's book for the club butts and HVF's, and Colonial Frontier Guns by TM Hamilton for a look at the Buccaneers.