Humility Training: Offhand Shooting

[roundball]

Got a good dose of humility training this morning.

For the past couple of years since switching to flintlocks I've made myself do all my shooting sitting in a small chair to simulate sitting in a treestand, it's been good training and I've learned how to get darn near sand bag accuracy at 50yds doing it.

So I decided for the next few months until Deer season, I'm going to do something different, stand on my hind legs and shoot off hand...tried that today at the range.

Well, I set up a 5" steel hanging plate at 50yds and was really frustrated for the first half hour or so as I was only hitting it about 50% of the time...much harder than I thought it would be.

Then I finally figured out a comfortable stance and body position that also let me hold my left elbow down on my side, with my hand right under the rifle in front of the trigger guard and was able to start getting consistency.

But even at that, the majority of the shiney splatters on the 5" black steel plate made at least a 4"-4.5" group so there's still a lot of work left to do...although I don't know realistically how much tighter I can expect to get it shooting offhand like that anyway.

Offhand shooting appears to be a real challenge...I have good fast equipment and powder, I like to think of myself as a pretty good shot, and I shoot almost every week, but after this morning I really wonder about posts I've seen claiming 1" groups offhand at 100yds.

Are they for real? Open sights? Flintlock? Who does that?

 

[Stumpkiller]

Well, I can't claim a 1" group offhand at 100 yards (though I've watched guys do it with .308s).

A flintlock is double-tough because you not only have the delay, but the flash-in-the-face that freaks any sane person. I consider 2" at 50 and 6" at 100 to be fine flintlocking and I sleep well on those nights I have done such. And I drink a lot of coffee. II had a shooting instructor back in scouts that told me "you can only shoot as good as you can see" and not to expect to shoot much better with iron sights than half the width of the amount of target obscured by your front sight. I've seen some mighty thin front sights, and some mighty thick ones, on muzzleloaders. T/C, for example, puts what I would consider a hunting sight on their rifles. Thick front and wide rear notch with a lot of light on either side. Great for a deer at 75 yards, but not the best for a small, black dot at 100. With a narrow notch and a thin front sight of the right height to allow you to 'draw a fine bead' (just the tip of the front sight peeping into the rear notch) you would be better off - if you were accostomed to it and had it sighted in that way. Ever notice that the front sights on original long rifles are tiny, usually rounded on top and close to the barrel, and the rear notch is very shallow?

So, say you have a 44" barrel and a thin front sight of 1/20th of an inch (0.020"). At 100 yards that sight (Soh-Cah-Toa, remember him?) obscures 4", so a perfect, best ever, no wind and angel-on-your-shoulder group could be 2" if you had sharp eyes and contributed no errors other than the failings of human eyesight. So is a 1" group possible? How wide is a rounded front sight where it contacts a round target face? Infinately small - if you can see it.

I knew a fellow, deceased just a year, who could hit his own wood arrows almost every shot at 30 yards with a longbow that had no sights at all when he was in his 50's. I watched a guy throw, by hand, eight clay pidgeons into the air and break all eight with a pump 12 gauge. When I shot PPC there were several guys in the 'unlimited' class who were turning in targets with one ragged 2" hole containing 60 rounds from iron-sighted pistols (and that includes 5 rounds in 10 seconds at two distances and weak-hand shooting). My corrected eyesight is 20/15, but I know fellows who can make out things at 100 yards that I can't begin to pick out. I've never been to Friendship, so I can't say what the Uber Flinters turn in on their targets, but I would not be surprised to find that they would make your jaw drop. When a human takes a mind to learn how to use a specific weapon the results are amazing.

I used to turn in the occasional 1/4" c-t-c with my M700 Rem .222 & 10X scope - but the flintlock is still much more fun and satisfying.

 

[roundball]

I know what you mean that there surely are some people somewhere who have done it...and yes, I agree the size of the front sight is critical...like you said, TC's original was a fairly large size bead, then several years ago they brought out a second sight with a smaller bead half the size of the original, now the original is discontinued and the small one is standard.

I had a few barrels with the larger bead sight and replaced them all with the smaller one for that very reason, more precise aiming...and to help "pick up" the smaller front sight faster when hunting, I barely dish out the flat face of the bead with a small drill bit and put a dab of white paint in there.

But still...I wouldn't bet 50 cents I could shoot a 1" group at 100yds from benchrest/sandbags, much less offhand...wouldn't bet at all...would just hand over the money and save the powder :haha:

 

I've never heard of anyone shooting a 1" offhand group at 100yds. with a smokepole. THAT would be some shooting, considering the average hunter can only shoot a 4" group off the bags with iron sights. That is with a modern rifle capable of 1 MOA or better accuracy. Generally speaking, muzzlelaoder shooters are much better offhand shots than even Match Shooters who shoot mostly bench, or prone events only. Even the majority of guys I shot 3 positon with in the 70's and 80's were easy to beat when it came to offhand shooting.
: Now with match rifles, I've seen and done myself, groups of 1 1/2" offhand, but not very many. The rifle I used was illegal for position shooting, being a 22lb. .308 bench rifle with a 20X Unertal scope. The rifle was so heavy, it sank slowly down the target. When the hairs crossed the upper 10ring I sqeezed the shot off. My 10th round was a low 9. That was back in the 70's when my eyes were good & I didn't have any tremblies as now.
: 2 of the guys in our club managed 3" offhand groups fairly consitantly when they were competing around the province regularly.
: If I make 5" or 6"offhand with the smokepole, I feel pretty good. My .69 was a 1 1/2"er for 5 shots off the bags, consistantly with patched ball or paper ctg. Present .45 does 2" pretty consistantly with good wind conditions, sometimes less than that.
: I do a lot of bench shooting & hunting position shooting plus vermin blasting during the summer - pretty close to 4,000rounds a year or so for a variety of rifles from .22LR up - mostly up.
Daryl

 

[Rocky Johnson]

RoundBall Daryl I like your honesty. With my 308 with a 10 power scope I can shot sub 1 inch group off the sand bags. Off hand maybe 6 inches on a good day. Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Ohio Joe]

If someone could shoot a 1" - 100 yard group, (3 or 5 shots), with a flintlock, offhand, that would indeed be something to see! I would not say that it can't be done as there are many more discipined shooters out there then I. To some folks shooting offhand is to them what shooting off supports are to us. Good eyesight, steady nerve, controlled breathing, unflinching follow through, a rifle that fits you perfectly, why not? A good marksman settles for what they know they can do. A great marksman will never be happy with what they can do and is always seeking to shrink that group. So, can it be done? Has it been done? It's something to "shoot" for.

 

You are absolutely right. Bench shooting does take training and to be consistant, isn't as easy as it looks. Most people, the supposedly "AVERAGE" person, with a rifle that is a 1/4MOA rifle, are capable of shooting a 1 1/2" group of the bags with a scope on the 9X range. Most people don't shoot more than 10 to 20 rounds a year.
: My brother, Taylor, actually shoots his rifles & musket better offhand out to 50yds. than he can shoot off the bench, yet with a scoped modern rifle, he does just fine off the bench.
: Due to my back problems, I shoot sitting much more now than I ever did. It is really hard on the back to hold the long rifle or long musket for a 5 to 10 shot group. That type of shooting just wears me down. The last few years is the only time I've shot a Muzzleloader much off the bench. In the past, bench use was only for load development and to 'prove' a load's consistancy(with a muzzleloader). Shooting in prone, bench and 3 position competition has also helped with my shooting. That means for over 30 years, we've only been shooting ML's offhand(standing) and is the only position used on our 'trail - well, we've got one 'sitting' position, but with this one exception, it's offhand shooting. The constant practise does pay off, which is why we waxed the modern blokes in Squamish.
Daryl

 

[JerryToth]

Hi Roundball;

I've been shooting the frontstuffers for about 5 or 6 years now. I got interested at first in order to have an extra deer season here in Pennsylvania. Consequently, my early years of practice with the muzzleloaders were shooting leaning across logs, leaning on trees, sitting on a stool and putting an elbow on my knee or a stick, and other braced positions. Then, someone invited me to my first "woodswalk" with a local buckskinners group. Maybe I shouldn't admit to my naievity, but I was surprised to learn that they did ALL of their shooting offhand! I was also surprised to learn that the heavier barrelled rifles shot steadier offhand than a lighter rifle. I had only shot centerfires before this, and I'd generally done like lots of fellows... constantly in search of a lighter rifle!

Anyway, a bit of encouragement after a year and a half of offhand shooting... it does seem to get easier. Not that I'm "good", but I am at least improving!

We have a couple of fellows that can hit an egg, offhand at 40 yards, almost every shot! So it is possible to learn to be good at offhand shooting.

Also, I seem to notice that the fellows that are the better shots, at least in my local group, generally have the longer 42" barrels.

Regards,

Jerry.

 

[roundball]

That's good to hear...and I'm looking forward to the change of pace shooting offhand the next few months until hunting season opens, if for no other reason than just to learn something new...my goal this summer is to get good enough to knock coke cans of the 50yd line consistently...(I think the eggs may have to wait !!)

 

First of all, shooting is "all between your ears". That doesn't matter the discipline. Offhand, benchrest, handgunning, shotgunning....it all starts "between your ears". Your head has to be "right" for good shooting. Anyone with enough money can buy equipment that will win any match man can conceive. Nowadays there's lots and lots of good equipment available to everyone of every discipline for moderate cost. There, I've got that part of shooting out of the way.

Secondly, there was some mention of sights, fine sights, scoped sights, open sights but not once did I see mention of Patridge style sights and a six o'clock hold ON A BULLSEYE TARGET. Patridge sights and a six o'clock hold will allow for some very good shooting on bullseye targets, whether they be on a rifle or a handgun. One thing I learned all too well when shooting BPC long range rifles was how important it is that the target match the sighting equipment. I can't tell you how easy it is to shoot MOA groups at 400, 500, 600 and even 800 yards IF your sights match your targets. The open crosshair and bullseye targets are the first that come to mind. You have three concentric circles to align....and it can be amazingly, almost frighteningly, accurate. I won't go in to scoped rifle shooting at long range because I could write for hours, but the issues are the same.

Thirdly, "you can only shoot as good as you can see"....man, truer words were never spoken. Old eyes have a tough time with open sights, mine sure do!!! Aperature sights make things MUCH easier. Having said that, if a person is punching paper the proper sights will make all the difference in the world. Hunting is another matter.....not entirely, but considerably.

MOA groups at 100 yards offhand with open sights with a flintlock....I'd have to see it done to believe it. I'd have to see it done with a cartridge firing, scoped rifle to belive it. I am from Missouri and you'd have to "Show Me". I'm not sure it could be done at 50 yards with a flintlock. I used to shoot in a muzzleloading league that shot twice a week from April until October and there were some very, very, VERY good offhand riflemen in that league and not once do I remember MOA groups offhand at even 25 yards. We fired offhand at 25 and 50 yard bullseye targets for 20 rounds, 10 rounds at each distance. There were 3 former Missouri State league champions in that group and they never did it and 99.9% of those guys shot caplocks.

A person can get good, very, very good offhand. Position is a strange thing. What works great for one person won't work worth spit for another. The classic rifle, offhand position is with the trigger finger elbow parallel to the ground or slightly above.....I've seen, as have many or all of you, too many good shots who destroyed that theory. Guys all crunched up who tore the X ring out of the target.....but still not MOA at 25 or 50 yards. Confidence and comfort are much more important than what another person "thinks" should work. The classic position is always a good place to start from tho.

Shooting from a bench. Good ol'Daryl hit the nail on the head again. Bench shooting has a learning curve and takes some practice also. It's much more than laying a rifle across some sand bags or some other reasonably firm rest and pressing the trigger. You can push, pull or press a shot out of the group off a bench as surely as you can do it offhand. I've done it...and doggone it, it is frustrating!!! Until you learn what you're doing. Generally a right handed person will push a round high and right and vice-versa for a left handed person. Pulling a shot generaly goes in the opposite direction.....but not always! I could go into great detail but I won't.....there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. Granted much of this has to do with long range shooting but it is all applicable to PRB shooting offhand.

Essentially, you have three componets of shooting. Sight picture, breath control and trigger control. Once those are achieved a persons shooting will tighten up considerably. That's where the "between your ears" thing comes into play. After that, sight style as compatible with target, ranging, doping wind and all those other "experience" issues that have an effect on a persons shooting come into play. I don't care if it's 25 yards offhand or 1200 yards prone or off a bench.......it's all the same game.

I didn't mean to muddy the water....and I hope somewhere in that all too lengthy dissertation there are some grains of information that will be useful. Shooting is "all between your ears"......and it doesn't matter what kind of shooting we're doing.

Vic

 

[DanWalker]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, but have a couple of simple questions. First, what do you mean by MOA groups? I can usually noodle out most acronymns, but this one has me stuck. Second (this is where my ignorance comes in!), I have always heard the term 'six o'clock hold', but have never really known exactly what is meant by it. Can anyone help with a very precise definition of the sight picture involved in a 'six o'clock hold'? Thanks!

 

[roundball]

MOA = Minute Of Angle

Six O'Clock hold it a sight picture where the round black center of a target is sitting on top of the front sight.
(the sight being right under it in the "6 o'clock position)

 

Minute of Angle is so close to 1 inch at 100 yards that it is almost an accepted fact. I can't recall exactly what the measurement is but I believe it's 1 and some tiny decimal of an inch. MOA carries on downrange as 2 in. at 200 yards, 3 in. at 300 yards, ad infinitum. It is...well, a minute of angle, as in the degree of an angle. I believe a degree is divided into minutes and seconds and unless my memory has failed me completely there are 60 minutes in a degree, thus a "minute of angle" is 1/60 of a degree. Someone out there correct me if I'm wrong, please!!!

The six o'clock hold has also been called a "lollipop on a stick" or a "pumkin on a post"....and probably other names.

Vic

 

[gordy]

Not to belittle all the other good information in thease posts.I would have to agree that Your state of mind most often is the determineing factor to wether we do really good on a given day or not so good.An example of how much Your mental condition (mind set) effects what We do physically, would be a simple act of throwing a stone or baseball.hawks,knives Etc.All the practice in the world isn't going to get the ultimate score unless we "think" the object to the target. This is a great thread with many good points of view and information. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[DanWalker]

Thanks a bunch to Roundball and Sharps4590! That clears up a lot for me. Again, a really interesting thread - there's enough good stuff in this thread alone to make the whole forum wothwhile!

 

[Zonie]

Sharps: You are correct about the MOA thing.
Just to show how little I have to do at the moment I will give the following:

The distance from the exact spot on the target which you are aiming at when shot at 100 yards in inches is equal to (100 yards X 3 feet X 12 inches) times the Tangent of 0 degrees, 1 minute.

There are 60 minutes in one degree so one minute equals 1 degree/60 or 0.016666667 degrees.

So we have 3600 inches X Tan 0.01666667 degrees

or 3600 X .000290888 = 1.047197 inches.

So if the center of the shot falls within a 2.0943 inch circle at 100 yards distance it is within "one MOA".

Boy, this stuff makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

 

[Stumpkiller]

So if the center of the shot falls within a 2.0943 inch circle at 100 yards distance it is within "one MOA".

I think you meant "2.0943 inch circle at 200 yards" in the above

The next fly in the ointment is that not only is it rare to find a shooter whe can hit offhand at 100 yards - it is equallt difficult to fine a shooter who can judge distance to within 10%. One of the shooting magazines once did a test where volunteers at a shooting expo were asked to guess the distance to a deer silhouette at unknown yardage ( I seem to recall 127 yards was the actual distance), and to pick the 100 yard stake among a jumbled group of stakes in an open field. The average guess was something like 25% off in both tests! Several shooters guessed the deer to be 250 yards away - a 100% error!

 

The position used in offhand shooting with a muzzleloader is usually more accurate with a slightly different hand positon than shooting offhand with a modern match rifle. I have also been using it with modern rifles with improved accuracy as well.
: This position I've been using, has really helped my scores over the past 20 years of so of using it, so I should pass this on for experimentation.
: I read about it, probably in the NAPR magazine, or maybe Muzzleblasts, many years ago.
: Yeah, okay, the positon, eh? It's simple as can be.
: The buttstock placed as it should be for it's form and shape, on the inside 'cup' of the shoulder or high on the arm as it's design mandates, then the off-hand index finger is placed lengthwise, pointing towards the muzzle, on the netry-pipe. The 'other' fingers grasp the forewood only, not touching the barrel, which can change it's normal vibration & therefoe accuracy.
: What this hand position does, is virtually eliminate the sideways movement of the barrel, and allows all the concntration to be on the virtical plane of movement only. This is far easier than having to fight both directions of movement. It will take a bit of practise, but does work. This hand postion also moves the off-hand foreward away from cap-fragments or pan flash.
: Dang - there goes another 'secret'.
Daryl

 

Our ham and bacon shoot was Saturday and Sunday. Saturday I brought my 45 caliber flinter and my Ruger old Army. I knew that I was not going to do very well with my left arm in a sling, but I went ahead and shot two of my scoring targets on that day, and let me till you what if you wanna talk about a piss poor. Each target has a possible score of 60, I shot a 19 on my first one and 24 on the other.

For ham and bacon shoot's, the rifle targets are, two targets at 25 yards and two targets at 50 yards, for the pistol its one target at 25 yards and one target at 50 yards (we save the 100 yard shooting for the larger matches).

Sunday I decided switchover to my GPR with the reasoning that when I'm shooting one-handed the Flintlock hang time was killing me that day before. I didn't do too bad this day, my best target was 48 out of possible 60 on a 50 are target (4th place for that target). I went ahead and shot my pistol scoring targets, I didn't do very well having to shoot one-handed but I did keep most of the balls on the paper

 

[Ohio Joe]

Well, at least you do have a note from the doctor, roaddog. I, on the other'hand have no excuse. My offhand shooting of late has been atrocious. Too many hours spent shooting off the cross sticks and not enough time spent shooting offhand. I will remedy that if the wind ever stops blowing out of, Wyoming. Hey, sharps4590 (Vic), you didn't leave the wind turned on when you moved out'a Wyoming did ya? :haha: Seriously, I do need to get out and do more offhand shooting. I didn't do that bad at our club blanket shoot two Sundays' ago, but I know I'm capable of better. I'm the type of shooter who enters into a single mind set like, "cross sticks", then I have to shoot my way out. It was easier when I was younger. :haha: What were we talking about???