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Humility Training: Offhand Shooting

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Now Joe....where I lived in Wyoming we didn't have much wind...too many mountain ranges too close....Eastern and Southern Wyoiming are the claimants to tenacious winds and Iv'e experienced all of them I care to!!!! Star Valley, Wyoming is a heck of a lot less windy than south-central Missouri!!!!! However.....had I been able to calm the winds even a bit I assuredly would have....I hate a wind as much as I hate our incredible humidity!!! Now a pleasant spring, summer or autumn breeze is another matter entirely.

I never have learned well to dope wind while shooting. It is a curse!!!!!

Vic
 
Zonie....the things a person thinks of to keep them awake. Last night I lay there trying to remember exactly how many minutes were in a degree. Here's what I came up with. As everything begins at the Prime Meridian which runs thru Greenwhich, England, I divided the earth into 360 degrees as is done for navigation. Ok....there are 24 hours in a day so the earth rotates thru 15 degrees an hour. 15 degrees goes into 60 minutes four times so I determined that there were 4 minutes for each degree of angle and that there are 240 seconds per degree of angle. Made sense to me that navigation and location could be accomplished both longitudinally or latitudinally by that method......now you come on here and tell me I was right to begin with, that there are 60 minutes in a degree of angle!!! I was all prepared to make knee bending apologies and beg forgiveness for the error of my ways....and you tell me I was originally correct!!! OH MY GOODNESS!!!!! What am I going to lose sleep over tonight!?!?!?!?

By the way, which is correct, other than the measurement of a minute of angle?

Vic
 
Stumpkiller.....regarding the range estimation thingy you are so correct it pains everyone who has ever estimated range. For everyone....get a laser rangefinder and just play with it...they are great toys!!!! You will learn sooooo much about range estimation. Mostly you will learn how really, really bad you are at it!!!

Vic
 
"...I think you meant "2.0943 inch circle at 200 yards" in the above..."

Stumpkiller, no I meant a 2.0943 Diameter circle. Guess I should have added the word diameter.

The calculation I did up above is calculating the size of the Radius around the exact center point being aimed at.

At 200 yard....... :snore: :snore: :snore:

Oh ::, To help the non-sleepers in the group, it seems that the 24 hours and 60 minutes and 60 seconds time thing does not work out the same as the degrees, minutes and seconds angle thing. No, I don't know why.
 
Gotcha.

I just use the units of: Gray Squirrel, Bunny, Coyote and Deer. Or: 1-1/2", 2-1/2", 5" and 10"

As in: "That group's good enough for bunnies at 30 yards", or "all in a coyote kill zone at 75 yards."

Here's my two favorite iron-sight targets.

target4.gif
target1.jpg


Easy(er) to pick out that white & black contrast over iron sights with these tired eyes.

For those interested, these and several others (turkey head, a couple scope type) are downloadable in .pdf format from[url] Remington.com[/url]

http://www.remington.com/targets/papertargets.htm
 
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Here is a score that a Friend of mine had a a resent shoot,she came in third.But I will tell you she is the best shot I know Man or Woman shooting a Muzzleloader offhand.

Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club

I shot in an offhand match at the Gemmer M/L club today. There were approximately 29 people in attendance. Targets were shot at 25, 50, and 100 yards.

1st place w/135.........Bob Browner
2nd place w/133-2x..can't think of his name
3rd place...w/133-1x.......ME!

It was a great time!

Mo

oneshot
 
I'll weigh in here as this is a great subject with many excellent posts to date.

If you want to see off-hand rifle shooting at its best, take a look at Olympic air rifle. This game is shot at 10 meters, off-hand, with iron sights (ok, fancy aperature sights), using a match format of 60 shots for men and 40 shots for women. The rifles are all .177 pellet rifles, most are using compressed air (at 3000 PSI) as a propellant. The target is a 10-ring target where the 10-ring itself is a dot smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. And if you're not hitting that dot on at least 45 of the 60 shots, you ain't even competitive. The good shooters hit it at least 50 out of 60 shots, and all their other shots never go outside the 9-ring (which happens to be just about .177" in diameter!). These shooters use specialized pants, boots, jackets and gloves to achieve very little body movement. But they still have to support their 10+lb rifles for the shot, and their margin for error is so small it makes MOA groups look like shootgun patterns.

In this game mental control is what makes you or breaks you. Breathing, relaxation, trigger control, and stance are all important factors. But the single biggest factor remains concentration. If your brain is not 100% focused on shooting a "10" then you'll blow the shot, guaranteed.

One additional point here... One factor in offhand shooting which is often overlooked is balance. If we don't have good balance and fast recovery from external stimulus (like wind blowing our bodies around) then we will shoot poorly. Trust me, I know about this as I have terrible balance! A training technique that I have found to be helpful in developing balance is the use of a BIM board. BIM = Balance Improvement Machine.

To make one, take a sheet of plywood (I used 3/4")and cut from it a 24" diameter circle. At the centre of the circle affix with three or for screws a wooden ball or a piece of wood with a radius turned on one end of it and a flat on the other. The flat spot mates with the plywood to give good bearing surface for your screws to take hold on. I used a 4" pressure-treated wooden ball from Home Depot. It was originally designed for topping off a deck post - just cut off the portion of the post topper that contains the lag screw so you get a ball that's flat on one side. Once you've got this put together, set it on a hard surface with the ball against the ground (don't do this on hardwood or vinyl floors as you WILL leave a dent in your floor!). Now try to stand on the piece of plywood. I wish you luck. Eventually, with lots of work, you'll be able to stand upright on this contraption. And once you can, you'll see our group sizes shrink. This has certainly been the case with my pistol groups.

And just as an aside, I know one pistol shooter who actually is able to not only stand upright on this BIM board with gyrating all over the place, but he's put so much work into developing his balance and coordination that he can actually shoot from this position! Needless to say, he's quite an accomplished athlete who competes internatinally.
 
Very interesting, this pellet gun shooting, and most demanding an enterprise, it is, for I have shot the rifle used, at the requisit range. It is fun & very demanding. I especially liked the 2 stage, 2 ounce electronic trigger.
: Keep in mind, that one minute of angle, although just over 1" at 109yds.(100meters), it is just over 1/10" at 10 meters, the range being shot with the pellet guns. As the pellet used is .177" roughly the dia. of the 9 ring, an average target for a master would be the quivalence of about 2 MOA or 3MOA, or 2 to 3/10" at that 10 meters. IF all pellets were fired on one target and measured as a group. Although the requisit 10 shots are at 10 different bulls, I do believe, as 10 shots on one target would not be able to be scored.
: That errant pellet, making the group of 3 MOA was but .150" from one side, with another the same distance on the other side and making 2 points less than a perfect score, which is in the relm of a Master Shooter.
: So, it appears that a Master with a Pellet gun and meeting the requirements of that skill, dressed for it, will shoot roughl the same size groups offhand as my circa 1860 rifle did off the bench. - Cool!
: If my math is wrong, sorry.- I hate math.
Daryl
 
Discussion of shooting is fascinating, offhand shooting, even more fascinating, offhand shooting of a patched roundball, more still.

Thing is, even if you have all the skill and technique locked for shooting off the bench AND manage to transfer that to an offhand version, you can still get scotched by the loading technique and components. For me, this is the ultimate shooting challenge and doing well means you have a whole lot just right.

Regards, sse
 
Interesting reading!!! I taught my kids how to shoot kentucky windage using the Crosman Mod. 60, and 760, pellet rifles, both scoped with 4x15's... By having them shoot from a home made shooters bench, I had them center their crosshairs on the small bull. If they hit high and right it was easy for them to understand that by putting the crosshairs low and left an equal amount from the center of the bull from their previous shot they should hit the bull. They understood this, and did it. They're great training rifles to prepare our youth for any type of shooting. We're predominantly a muzzle loading family, and we love it!!! :)
 
sse,,, Did you know that at one time the offhand matches at the NMLRA were considered the, "just for fun" matches... Bench matches were the main event... Today, NMLRA offhand matches are considered number one in the eyes of the competitors... Just don't tell the bench shooter's that... :D
 
Heck no, I didn't know that. I participate in a monthy woods walk and its great fun. Now, compare that to a bunch of guys sedately covering a bench with handloads and squeezing off rounds through their chronos, waiting sufficient time between shots for the barrel to cool down...yada, yada :snore:

Still awake?? ::

Regards, sse
 
keith100.jpg
Here gives Keith with a Samuel Faries .40 flintlock (Ohio) that I built and his wife Sandy bought from me for him for their wedding anniversary before I realized what was happpening. This is Neill Field's High Dollar Blanket shoot. This was the last target after all the steel silhouettes and paper squirrel targets. It is a silhouette at 100 yards, off hand. Notice that Keith hit the lower orange paster dead center. That was just a fluke. I think...
 
That is a fine looking rifle, Herb! It also appears to be a fine shooter! The feller holding it deserves such a rifle,,, he be a mountain man, and he be knowing where to aim!!! :applause:
 
Thanks, Ohio Joe. He be some of a mountain man. Keith and Sandy do their own clothes and bead and quill work, and it is thoroughly researched and authentic. I, however, made a mistake. I am so used to saying ".40 caliber" that I did it here, but this is really a .36 caliber. The only one I've made so far, and only got to shoot it about 20 shots to regulate the sights. It has a Green Mountain barrel about 8 years old and a small Manton lock with small Davis double set triggers. Stock cut for me by Jack Garner of Tennessee Valley Manufacturing. As exact a copy as I could make of Samuel L. Faries rifle, shown in Whisker's book "Behold the Longrifle", "Ohio Long Rifles Vol. 1" and Donald Hutslar's "Ohio Gunsmiths and Allied Tradesmen 1750-1950, Volume 1". Keith is also a damned good shot, I scored him before in blanket shoots, but not for this one. I wonder if he called that shot...
 
Stumpkiller- that was someone else's larger caliber shot in the temple, not pasted out. There are staples holding the cardboard to the backstop. Keith's .36 caliber hole is in the center paster. And here is a better picture of Keith in his authentic pre-1840 mountain man get up. And a better view of his new rifle. (And replacement for his broken ramrod!)
keithfar.jpg
 
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