Hunting with Roundballs

[Hoyt]

I noticed on another blk pwdr forum that there seemed to be a lot of misses during the late primitive muzzleloader season. That brought to mind something I learned many yrs. ago about deer reaction to hits...sometimes they don't...and I wondered to myself if when using roundballs at fairly low velocities if they might not even more.
I know I was guilty of loosing more than one buck because he didn't act like I thought he should when hit with shotgun or rifle. That was a time and place when deer seasons were a new thing and there wasn't a source to learn from in the deep south where I lived. The only deer hunting around was scarce and with dogs and buckshot. This was pre-treestand..and in lots of northern states it was even against the law to hunt from elevated stands. In other words I learned as I went, about deer hunting.
Back to the deer reaction to hits...I learned the sad way that just because a deer doesn't get knocked down, stumble or limp off, has no reflection on him being hit or not. I learned by hunting in the same area a few days later and recognizing a dead carcass as one I had missed a few days before...and I learned that same lesson more than once. I just had it in my head that anything hit with a bullet was going to be knocked side ways at least...but as most of us know nowadays...that's a far cry from reality...and most likely more so when using roundballs in a muzzleloader. I now go to where the deer was when I shot at him and do whatever it takes to convince myself I didn't hit it...and it takes a lot and should.
On that same forum a guy made the remark that he had come upon several dead deer that had been shot with roundballs...and that made me decide to post this thread about hunting with roundballs...that and the fact that this is going to be my first yr. to use them and I would appreciate all the in's and out's to use them most effectively.
I'm not trying to start anything about loosing game with roundballs..etc. like the bow vs gun thing..I'm not even interested in their effectiveness vs a conical or whatever. I already know they work and decided that's the way I'm going to hunt. I kinda feel like it might take the same mindset as I have during handgun hunting using revolvers with hard-cast wheel weights...but don't know and that's why the post.
Thanks for any info.

 

[mothernatureson]

hey hoyt, yeah I like to use the roundball in fifty caliber. You're right, cant always tell by the deer's reaction if it's been hit or not. Got to check at the location of the animal and look for sign. I like to use the roundball cause it's what I got confidence in. You are in possession of good ethics and need more like you in the field. Other than that , I have no advice for you, do your thing and happy hunting!

mothernatureson

 

[Killitgrillit]

Howdy Hoyt
I don't know if this is 100% true or not but It has always been in my case, when hunting whitetales in Georgia when I shoot at at deer and hit it if it runs off it will keep it's tail tucked down you won't be able to see the (whitetale)
Now when I shoot and miss (yes this happens) they will always put that white flag up when there exiting to the next county.
hope this might help ya
Killit

Remember a hunter talks about how long his shot was!!!
A great hunter talks about how short his shot was!!!

 

[cayugad]

I can remember one year using a .54 caliber with roundball. I was hunting the edge of a large field. A deer came across the field towards me but stopped about 70 yards out, in the open field.

I took and waited for it to turn broadside since it was grazing a little. When it did, I took aim and touched off the rifle and the deer stopped eating and looked in my direction. After looking right at me, it just lowered it's head to continue grazing it appeared. I had dumped the next powder charge from the speed loader and was reaching for another ball, when the deer fell down.

Had that deer suddenly ran off after being so calm about the whole thing, I would never have thought I had hit it. Why it did not take off after being shot is still a mystery to me.

 

[roundball]

Wonder how the guy knew all the dead deer he found had been shot by round balls...and if they were, they were either poor hits or were simply not followed up on and tracked down.

I'm going to make a statement about round balls and want to say up front I'm not making the statement just to be "sounding off"...but so far, I haven't lost a deer that I've shot with a patched round ball, and I've taken them with .45/.50/.54/.58 caliber balls...longest shot was 70yds with a .54cal...shortest was 20 yds with a .45cal squirrel rifle.

The performance capability of a round ball is completely adequate...if placed where it must be placed with enough energy to do the[url] job...in[/url] my personal opinion, the following are most important to me when hunting with muzzleaders & patched round balls:

1) Limit shots to the effective range of the caliber and load being used...ie: don't try to take as long a shot with a 128grn .45cal ball as you would with a 278grn .58cal ball...it won't have near the energy at distance that a big heavy ball will;

2) Use enough powder to get the job done! A lot of people seem to use enemic powder charges...charges that are down in the bottom third of the load range for a caliber...target loads really...IMO, if you're going out to kill a 200lb animal, then use a powder charge that will kill it with authority;

3) Sight in the rifle the way it will be shot while hunting...ie: doesn't do much good to zero a rifle from the bench then shoot it while sitting upright leaning against a tree...POI will be off;

4) Practice shooting the way you'll shoot when hunting...ie: if you're going to be ground sitting leaning against a tree, then practice that way...if you're going to be sitting in a tree stand, then practice while sitting in a small kindergarten chair or something to simulate that cramped condition...bench rest shooting is almost a worthless form of practice for hunting;

5) Practice from those positions bracing your off elbow on your chest until you can consistently hit a 3" target at 75yds...force the discipline it takes to control all the elements to make that shot...precise sight alignment, trigger squeeze, etc...and not from a bench;

6) Learn to pinpoint vital organ location for precise shot placement...a round ball doesnt have the tons of energy that a .30-06 or .300 mag have, and round balls don't produce massive amounts of shock effect...so "close enough" is not good enough with a round ball...shot placement is an absolute premium consideration with a round ball..."aim small/miss small".

7) Be patient...wait for the shot...won't do any good to hurry a shot, then be off by 6", and never recover the deer.

:m2c:

 

[Rebel]

Well said. Roundball. I too have beleive that shot placement is the key, but that you need enough powder in the gun to do the job right when the shot goes where it should. For me 80 grs 3f in a .50 cal is a minimum hunting load for mule deer. Others may disagree, but i figure the deer deserves the best chance of a clean kill.

 

[BrownBear]

Rule #1: ALWAYS follow up a deer after you shoot, whether you think you connected or not.

Rule #2: See Rule #1.

Doesn't matter what you shoot with, the bottom line for an ethical hunter starts and ends with Rule #1.

 

[No Deer]

I have gotten 2 deer with smoothbores. The little buttonbuck was litterally knocked off his feet and never got up when hit with the 12 ga. roundball at about 25 yards. The little doe I got this year ran about 30 yards after gettin hit from my 20 ga. from about 20 yards while she was on a dead run. Roundballs will do the job if you stay within the limits of its and your capabilities.

 

[bob1961]

i shot a doe in 2003 after buying my T/C at 35 yards....she didn't know i was there when i pulled the trigger....the round ball went in and out leaving a perfect .50 hole....but it went through her heart and cart wheeled her on her back and she got up and ran 90 yards till she fell....i don't know if the blast spooked her or what....but she did run and with her tail up....i've also shot deer with my bow to where they just walked off with there tail up and bleeding good to where i can see it comeing out and they just walked till dropping....so IMO deer will do what ya think they won't....but i've never shot a deer with a rifle to where they just dropped in there tracks....the closest they've done that to me is with an arrow within 30 yards and bout 6 seconds....i'm still learning this game myself :results: ...........bob

 

[mikee51848]

but i've never shot a deer with a rifle to where they just dropped in there tracks...

With a center fire :sorry:, a few times.
And I wondered too, how that guy new they were all shot with roundballs? :hmm:

 

[Rat]

Wow great post RB. (and everyone else)

No matter what you are shooting, sometimes the animal does not react. Modern, ML, handguns, etc. I shot my first deer with a .303 British, at about 30 yards, and it turned/spun around, and jumped over the bushes and dissapeared. I felt lower than a snake's belly because I missed a standing shot at 30 yards. Decided to look on the other side of the bushes anyhow. There was a dead deer...heart shot.

If a heart shot from a .303, at 30 yards does not drop a deer everytime, why should anything else?

I know of a guy that lives near me, has a bunch of land, drives around on his property, and jumps out and shoots at the Elk with his ML. If they don't go down he gets back in the truck and goes back to driving around. Guess what I have found on his property after season is over? Yes, dead wasted elk...or what's left of them.

So yes, many "hunters" do that, if it's not an obvious hit they are too lazy to follow up. That's too bad, ANY time one shoots at an animal they should spend at least an hour looking for sign.

I think velocity is the round ball's best friend, and as mentioned hunting loads should have "authority". I can't imagine how one would find a good stout load with a RB to be ineffective...they are very deadly. But no weapon or type of projectile is going to work well if you under-load it, place your shot poorly, or don't follow up when you do shoot, no matter how the animal reacts.

Rat

 

[MikeChapin]

I only use round balls and have shot both deer and elk with them. I can usually tell if I have a hit just from the sound or a puff of dust. I will not take a shot if I don't have a clean one. From the distances I shoot it is pretty easy to tell. I will only take a shot if it is inside 100 yds, I try to get within 50 if I can.

The last deer I shot was a bit mulie doe at about 70 yds with a .50. I was using 70 grains of FFFg. The ball shattered the shoulder blade, passed through the lungs and broke a rib on the far side. The flattened ball was just under the skin on that side. That particular deer raised its forleg and took one step before it fell over.

Most of the time they go down pretty fast. On those occasions where they run, I spot where they went into the brush and set back and wait for ten minutes or so. I then track them starting from where they went into the brush. If a deer is not pressed and hit decently they will go to the first hidden place they can find and lie down. They are usually dead by the time I get there.

If you press them they can run for a mile or so before they pile up. Adrenalin is a wonderful thing. It also tastes terrible. I would rather the deer not be all heated up and full of the stuff when they die.

 

[bob1961]

With a center fire

yeah had a marlin lever action with open sites though in .35....i know i'm a siner but i have repented.........bob

 

[The Baron]

I'll state first off that I have zero experience with PRB hunting.

But, I used to deer hunt a lot. I shot one of my deer, a button buck, running by full tilt at about 30 yards. Despite a solid double lung hit from a .30/06 and 180gr. Nosler Partition, it never flinched. It ran full out about 75 yards and died on a beaver dam. At first I couldn't believe how I had missed, then I found unmistakable sign and an easy blood trail.

I've also heard plenty of stories about guys shooting deer with moder guns and losing them, only to conclude they need a bigger gun for the next year. No amount of discussion at the local bar could convince most guys that, no matter what the gun, a good hit was required to kill their deer. Usually, guys who lost a deer would swear up and down that they hit then right in the chest, but the gun or bullet failed them (yeah - sure :shake

I'm sure the laws of shot placement apply soundly to PRB's, just the same as any other weapon. It's better to slip a PRB into the right spot, than make a bad shot with a modern rifle. No matter what gun goes into the woods, it's up to the hunter to use it right.

 

[roundball]

I'll state first off that I have zero experience with PRB hunting.

But, I used to deer hunt a lot. I shot one of my deer, a button buck, running by full tilt at about 30 yards. Despite a solid double lung hit from a .30/06 and 180gr. Nosler Partition, it never flinched. It ran full out about 75 yards and died on a beaver dam. At first I couldn't believe how I had missed, then I found unmistakable sign and an easy blood trail.

I've also heard plenty of stories about guys shooting deer with moder guns and losing them, only to conclude they need a bigger gun for the next year. No amount of discussion at the local bar could convince most guys that, no matter what the gun, a good hit was required to kill their deer. Usually, guys who lost a deer would swear up and down that they hit then right in the chest, but the gun or bullet failed them (yeah - sure :shake

I'm sure the laws of shot placement apply soundly to PRB's, just the same as any other weapon. It's better to slip a PRB into the right spot, than make a bad shot with a modern rifle. No matter what gun goes into the woods, it's up to the hunter to use it right.

==================================================================================
Well said...couldn't agree more...and I wonder if the average person shoots enough year round, or gets enough actual shots on game to really see and learn the different effects between a precise shot and a close shot that at first might have looked like a precise shot but really wasn't.

I wonder if the average hunter who gets few shots on game in his lifetime shoots fast and wide eyed at large areas of a deer, yet is completely convinced in his mind's eye that the bullet went precisely where he intended it to go...however, a mere few inches off and it's a whole different ball game...been there, done that...learned differently over the years.

I also think there is a very important power factor associated with big projectiles that does not readily fit into the "power formulas" used to measure the relative power of projectices, ie: roundballs...the sheer size of their frontal area is present from the moment the ball touches the game and all the way through, even expanding larger.

By contrast, a 30-06 may be well on it's way through a lot of a deer's vitals by the time it's fully expanded, and then it's rarely as large as a round ball was to begin with.

I've been very lucky to have been able to shoot a lot of eastern deer with round balls in the past several years...most at 40-60yds...I've learned to wait for precise heart shots...a few have dropped where they stood and the rest have fallen within easy eyesight after a 25-35 yard mad dash, dead on their feet, crashing headlong into trees, etc.

The lead round ball is every bit as effective in bringing down a deer within normal muzzloading yardages as a high powered rifle is, possibly more so...it's just not a firearm & projectile designed to tip over a mountain at 500 yards.

I used to think I was a good shot & good hunter back during the 70's & 80's...but since I've gotten into muzzleloaders, then round balls, then flintlocks, I realize I wasn't all that good after[url] all...in[/url] retrospect it didn't take as much skill as I thought to put the crosshairs of a good scope on a deer using a rest and drop him 300 yards across a beanfield with a .264 mag, 30-06, etc...getting close enough to a buck to see the hairs on his nose and putting a lead ball in his heart with a flintlock has been the best hunting challenge and reward for me of all times
:redthumb: :redthumb:

 

[Dave K]

I know when I shoot at a deer, afterwards I am not the most rational guy in the woods. If I can't find sign after a diligent search I go for help. I am too wired up to see well and I can soon develope a "panic" because I can't find sign of a hit, or the deer. This past fall I was hunting with my Grandpa's all original 30-40 Krag he brought home from WW1. I took a shot at 25yds. that seemed too perfect to be true. After a short wait I went down to look and follow the deer sign. Huh, I could see where the deer spun around, but soon his trail was with other deer tracks. Darn, I KNEW I had a solid hit on the heart! I went for help. At camp, my buddy said I must have missed. I said NO WAY, come and help me look. Since he wasn't excited as I was, he quickly found blood, about 50+ yds from the area where shot. Another 80+ yards and we found a very dead deer with a heart that was destroyed. I am not perfect, but I have seen many other hunters walk away from a scene like this, with the idea that they must have missed. As an old bowhunter, there are times that I like the arrow better. I KNOW that I hit, there is NO question. Many gun hunters walk away from deer that are solidly hit, because they really don't know if they hit, and assumed they missed.

 

[Bearbait2]

"Many gun hunters walk away from deer that are solidly hit, because they really don't know if they hit, and assumed they missed."

Mr. K,
How very sad but true. But what is even worse IMHO are those that are too lazy to expend the effort and time to thourghly look for the wounded animal because it is easier to just shoot another one. :nono:
The animal deserves better.
Best Wishes

 

[Hoyt]

Lots of good info. in these posts..I went back and checked the thread about roundballs in dead deer and it was two roundballs found inside two deer a guy killed..anyway I don't pay any attention to that type of posting. The next guy to post said he found several deer in a small area after rifle season...etc. The only reason I even mentioned it is because in reading these posts I had the impression that roundballs didn't have much knockdown power and in that thread I noticed a lot of posters saying they had missed a lot of deer and wondered if they may have been hitting some of them and didn't know enough to follow up.
Anyway I know when I'm hunting with my revolvers I make a choice between shock..using JHP's or better penetration using hardcast WW's and I guess...don't know for sure..but that may be the choice in using PRB's vs conicals except the conicals wouldn't deliver as much shock as a jacketed hollow point in plastic...but maybe more penetration, bigger hole and wound channel than prb. If I'm correct about that I guess it's about how pc one wants to be and for me it's not about pc it's just that I want to hunt with the same things as someone would have with the same gun I'm using. To me that's about as far as I can get away from all the hurry up, hustle, bustle of the time. To be off alone in the woods with the type gun and loads that were used over 100yrs ago. In that set-up and scenario there really ain't enough difference between now and then to even rent a time machine and do it for real. The only difference I can think of is the game where I hunt are not as many and wiser.
However..reading these post I'm getting the impression that roundballs are bout like any other projectile..it's just according to where you hit them and with how much force as to how it preforms. If all this is right then the big and deciding factor far as my thinking goes is how well do roundballs penetrate.
Seeing as how they don't have the shock factor, bone and tissue destruction of a high powered bullet the best results would come from a big hole and wound channel. To get the hole size you need a big ball and the best wound channel would be with a big ball pushed fast for best penetration for an exit hole for good blood trail if needed.
To get all this with manageable loads..I guess we are looking at as has been posted, shots 100yds and under. Then with all this I'm still wondering if I'm using a .54 or .62cal. with top end accurate load shooting deer at say 75yds. will I be able to take a thru shoulder or quartering away shot..or do I have to treat every roundball setup as if I'm using a .243 and only take behind shoulder double lung or heart shots? The main reason I ask this is because I hunt areas with real big impenetrable swamps..deep water and gators..and there are times when even a heart or double lung shot is not the best.
I guess my main question in all this dribble is will a roundball break through both shoulder of a 180lbs. deer if the shoot is 75yds and under?

 

[Slamfire]

If you want to break a shoulder on a quartering away shot take the offside one, go through both lungs to get too it. I don't like to shoot through lungs high up, the animal drowns in its own blood and it takes a while for them to fill up. In your swamp that could be a poor choice. Try for the heart/aorta area. When the top of the heart comes off, the blood pressure drops rapidly, and the animal won't get far. :front:

 

[roundball]

To get all this with manageable loads..I guess we are looking at as has been posted, shots 100yds and under. Then with all this I'm still wondering if I'm using a .54 or .62cal. with top end accurate load shooting deer at say 75yds. will I be able to take a thru shoulder or quartering away shot..or do I have to treat every roundball setup as if I'm using a .243 and only take behind shoulder double lung or heart shots? The main reason I ask this is because I hunt areas with real big impenetrable swamps..deep water and gators..and there are times when even a heart or double lung shot is not the best.
I guess my main question in all this dribble is will a roundball break through both shoulder of a 180lbs. deer if the shoot is 75yds and under?

IMO, I think of my ML's this way:
.45cal is like the .243
.50cal is like the .30-30
.54cal is like the .30-06
.58cal is like the .300 Mag

I've shot a few deer with the 128grn .45cal ball and they've all passed through the body organs, stoppinbg as a bulge under the hide on the far side; I try to make myself stay with soft targets (no shoulder bones) and limit the range to 75yds with the lightweight .45cal ball;

.50/.54/.58 should be no problem to 100yds...my longest has only been 70yds and it was a .54cal complete passthrough at 70yds.

Those I've taken with the .50cal have all made complete pass throughs except a couple that stopped bulging under the hide on the far side;

All the .54/.58 cals have made complete pass throughs;

If you get a good hit with a full power hunting load under 100 yds, you'll get your deer with a round ball for sure.