I Believe Southern Rifle - Initials but cannot ID

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AZshot

32 Cal
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Hi, I joined because I'm starting to collect American Long rifles. Longtime black powder shooter since I was young, just never bought long rifles. I have this one coming and trying to ID it. I think it may be Southern. The trigger guard and cheek piece are unusual, but I've found a few Piedmont NC examples like them. Just don't know for sure. The interesting thing is the initials, and where they're placed, not on the top flat. It's a Rogers & Brothers converted flintlock. Walnut I believe.

Can anyone help ID the maker, or at least region? Thanks.

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On another forum one collector said it looked to be an Ohio gun. Another said it didn't look Ohio. Way too many guesses without giving a tangible "why".
 
That trigger guard and butt plate are common on Ohio rifles some Ohio makers made plain full-stock percussion rifles while the half stock was more common. Perus the Association of Ohio Lomgrifle Collectors newsletters online.
 
I think it's a southern rifle. The triggerguard and buttplate are hand forged, and a lot of southern rifles used walnut stocks. The "beavertail" cheekpiece is also seen on some southern rifles, like this one by T. Peden, from South Carolina:

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I don't know a lot about these, but all of the Tennessee and North Carolina rifles I remember seeing had the straight, "Tennessee" style cheekpiece. I'm not sure about Virginia. We have these Peden rifles from South Carolina that have that type of cheekpiece, so I'm wondering if it might be a South Carolina thing. I don't know about Georgia and Alabama.

The way that forend is "relieved" above the upper ramrod thimble may also be a tell-tale feature to help with identification.

It is hard to discern colors accurately from computer pictures, but the stock looks light for walnut, to me. Southern builders were not averse to trying non-typical stock woods, such as applewood, pecan, or butternut.

Just a few random thoughts. It is an interesting rifle.

Notchy Bob
 
Thanks Bob, I'm hoping it's Southern too, I'm from NC. On the cheekpiece, there were a few makers in Eastern TN that used that type too. Dave Byrd who is a mountain long rifle scholar and author and has collected for 60 years calls the type a "Holsten" cheekpiece. I believe it's more of a wide regional thing used by several makers, as they heard about or saw other rifles with it. And perhaps a little later than the early NC/TN ones with the straight cheekpiece.

I'll post more pictures when I get it. But one interesting thing is it has a flintlock lock converted to percussion. Rogers $ Bros, PA. I know southern rifle makers usually bought locks to use, and didn't make their own very often.
 
Thanks Bob, I'm hoping it's Southern too, I'm from NC. On the cheekpiece, there were a few makers in Eastern TN that used that type too. Dave Byrd who is a mountain long rifle scholar and author and has collected for 60 years calls the type a "Holsten" cheekpiece. I believe it's more of a wide regional thing used by several makers, as they heard about or saw other rifles with it. And perhaps a little later than the early NC/TN ones with the straight cheekpiece.

I'll post more pictures when I get it. But one interesting thing is it has a flintlock lock converted to percussion. Rogers $ Bros, PA. I know southern rifle makers usually bought locks to use, and didn't make their own very often.
This is a great thread. It gave me the impetus to research this a little more, and you are right, the use of a curving cheekpiece was more widespread than I realized in the south.

Regarding the trigger guard with two spurs, we have an old rifle in the family that has a similar guard. Not identical to yours, but similar, with two spurs, and very skillfully forged by hand. Oddly, this particular rifle has no cheek piece at all. Dad always called it a "Tennessee rifle," and apart from the double-hook triggerguard and absence of a cheekpiece, it is a classic example. Ours is stamped "J.J. PRYOR" on the top barrel flat. I have James Whisker's book of Tennessee gunmakers, but I haven't found a listing for Mr. Pryor in that or any of the general references I have on hand. He may have been from another state.

My vision is not great, but I think I see "J. Mc Pn" on your rifle, with the "c" and "n" in superscript. Maybe J. McPherson, or something like that? I'm not sure about those last two letters. I looked through a couple of my references last night, but didn't find any likely candidates. I think there were a lot of people of Scots and "Scotch-Irish" ancestry in the southern highlands.

Congratulations on your acquisition! The rifle is a beauty. I'll be interested in anything else you may find about it.

Notchy Bob
 
I got the rifle in and am pretty impressed with it's condition and quality. The first big discovery was the "almost lollipop type" tang:

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To me, that is an iconic clue that it's Appalachian region. Other pics then my rationale below.

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Because I'm an engineer by training I like to logically look at the whole rifle, the sum of it's parts, not one piece. I've heard so far about 5-6 states mentioned, from OH, Indiana, NC, TN, VA, WVA (part of VA when this rifle was likely made), Alabama, a few others. The Midwestern's were eliminated early after I asked some probing questions. Basing everything on just one feature can throw you off...what if the trigger guard was replaced, for example? Lots of people broadly say "it's architecture looks XYZ" But WHAT are they seeing? Not explained.

By looking at all the features, is there more that point to one region? Where would you place each of these features, generally? My attempt:

Long tang filed into an "almost lollipop or dolls head" - Strongly Southern Mountains
Long barrel (45 1/2 inches) - Somewhat Southern or Southern Mountains
Plain wood, maple - Somewhat Southern or Southern Mountains
English converted flintlock - Common on Southern Rifles
Iron buttplate, hand forged - Typically Southern Mountains, but not exclusively
Iron trigger guard, hand forged - Typically Southern Mountains, but not exclusively
Trigger guard attached into bottom of rifle with wood screws, no screw through tang into trigger plate - Typically Southern
No brass patch box - Somewhat Southern or Southern Mountains
No nose cap - Somewhat Southern or Southern Mountains
iron thimbles and ramrod entry thimble - ?
Straight comb, deep curved butt - Somewhat Southern or Southern Mountains
Holston cheekpiece - Sometimes Southern or Mountains, but not exclusively
Steep comb rise from wrist - ?
Long, narrow wrist - Somewhat Southern or Southern Mountains

So to me, it has more Southern features than features from any other region.
 
That's a good analysis. I think your rifle is southern, also.

However, I would like to point out that plain maple stocks and long barrels (to focus on a couple of points) were used in other areas. I was looking into early Missouri gunsmiths and their rifles a few months ago. There were a lot of people from the east, including gunsmiths, moving to Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri in the first half of the 19th century. They brought their tools as well as their patterns with them. Some southern "styled" rifles could have very well come out of Missouri. In reading the frontier travel literature of the early 19th century, several times I have come across the phrase, "long, Missouri rifle," suggesting longrifles were frequently associated with that state.

After all that, though, I'm not suggesting your rifle is from Missouri. Just ruminating on some of the possible complications in determining a place of origin. I still agree that the preponderance of features, as you have laid them out, suggest a southern origin for your rifle, and I think the curving cheek-piece makes a strong case for one of the Carolinas. It is a beautiful rifle.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
Ruminating is good. These are hand-made rifles with great variation. It's really hard to tie them down. I should probably change my list from "typical or common" factors to "found on southern rifles" and if any are not, list "not usually found..." etc. To me, the dolls head, long tang is very iconic.
 
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