I give up!

[Rich44]

On my flintlock oil would interfere with the fly working correctly. Cleaned the parts and use WD-40 Dry lube in that area and it has worked perfect ever since. Keep working at it sorting ideas, you will feel great when you win!!

 

[Versanaut]

I agree with the consensus that the fly is the culprit here. It does look to be shaped left handed.

The reason it will work out of the stock / in your hand is that when we trigger by hand we tend to keep pressure on the sear while the hammer/tumbler drops past half **** before relaxing our grip. (we don't want to drop the lock) This holds the sear off the tumbler/bevel just enough to clear the catch. In the stock The set triggers strike the sear bar allowing it back down on the tumbler to ride the bevel all the way around. That fly shaped so the steep side catches on the sear while moving to half **** moving the fly out of the way allowing the sear to engage the notch. When drawn to full ****, the sear is dragged over the fly and back to the full **** notch. When fired, the sear rides that fly on the sloped side to allow it to lift over the half **** notch.

It's probably intermittent because sometimes the sear just has the right velocity and loose tolerance that it jumps the fly.

 

[Sun City]

Parts are much bigger on a Pratt and Whitney aircraft engine. @Sun City, you have also had extensive training on the engine and you are familiar with the parts.

You will need a main spring vise to relieve the tension of the mainspring so the mainspring can be safely removed from the lock. A screwdriver isn't the only tool you will need.
Mainspring Vise, to safely compress a mainspring - Track of the Wolf

In the picture below, @Erzulis boat is showing the tumbler with the bridle removed to show the fly. Its the little piece in the notch of the tumbler and the sear is resting on the fly. It has pushed the fly over the half **** notch and will ride over the notch and continue to rotate to strike the frizzen, make sparks and set off the charge in the pan

View attachment 98380


View attachment 98381

The half **** notch is just above the B in bevel. The nose of your sear is resting in the full **** notch. The bevel of the fly can also be seen and is facing the half **** notch when it should be facing the full **** and the nose of the sear.

Now that you, @Sun City, have the lock out and the hammer in full ****, does the fly move easily in the notch in the tumbler? If the bridle screws are too tight, that may bind the fly in the notch in the tumbler. Back the sear screw out 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Does the fly move freely in the tumbler? Pull the hammer back slightly to get the nose of the sear out of the full **** notch. Lift the sear to allow the tumbler to begin to rotate past the nose of the sear and allow the nose of the sear to ride on the tumbler. The nose of the sear should push the fly forward to cover the half **** notch. Now the nose of the sear will ride on the fly and pass over the half **** notch. If the fly is installed backwards the nose of the sear will stop on the fly.

If you don't have the spring vise to take the lock apart, find a muzzle loading rifle gun smith to take the lock apart and install the fly correctly.

A ML gunsmith in these parts would be akin to the Good Lord coming down every day at high noon and giving me a special blessing!

 

[Sun City]

So….I guess I need to order a right hand fly from Davis or just send him the entire lock!

 

[Grenadier1758]

The problem is still the fly. @Versanaut is correct in that the fly is the problem and is is hard to duplicate the problem without practice in lowering the hammer with the lock out of the mortise. Most of us lift the sear too high and the hammer makes the complete fall.

Could we see a picture of your lock with the bridle removed and the fly in the tumbler?

Davis is now part of the Log Cabin Shop. A call to Davis and perhaps sending the pictures might help. Maybe polishing the bevels on your fly would help. It is possible that the bridle was screwed too tightly and binding on the fly. The fly should be loose in the notch in the tumbler so the sear can pull the fly back as the hammer is cocked and the nose of the sear can push the fly forward as the hammer falls.

Just looked on the Davis web site. There is no listing for a left or right handed fly, but it will be worth the effort to give them a call.
The R.E. Davis Company | Muzzleloading Lock and Trigger Replacement Parts (redaviscompany.com)

 

[Tn poor boy]

Bolt screw to tight

 

[Snooterpup]

Hello! Just an idea I’ve seen before once or twice. Verify that the lock works off the gun. Reinstall the lock. Remove the trigger assembly completely. Using a tool, like a screwdriver or something similar, push on the sear. If the gun works, the trigger bar could be too high or the triggers inletted too deep. If the lock does not work correctly when doing this, the fly will be the problem. Getting the angle geometry on the fly is a real tricky business on a factory lock. Most work OK but usually can be tuned better. If the lock is the trouble and not the trigger assembly, send the lock back to L&R for repair or send it to Brad Emig at Cabin Creek.

 

[Snooterpup]

Hello! Just an idea I’ve seen before once or twice. Verify that the lock works off the gun. Reinstall the lock. Remove the trigger assembly completely. Using a tool, like a screwdriver or something similar, push on the sear through the trigger slot in the stock. If the gun works, the trigger bar could be too high or the triggers inletted too deep. If the lock does not work correctly when doing this, the fly will be the problem. Getting the angle geometry on the fly is a real tricky business on a factory lock. Most work OK but usually can be tuned better. If the lock is the trouble and not the trigger assembly, send the lock back to L&R for repair or send it to Brad Emig at Cabin Creek.

 

[springfield art]

I'm no expert but I try to think these things through logically.
If there is no visible inappropriate wood interference, could something else be putting torque or tension on part of the lock causing it to bind up?
Have you tried leaving the lock bolts just a tiny bit looser when installing the lock?
Will it fire with the trigger unset?
Is the flintcock catching on part of the wood next to the lock?

I don't care for a set trigger at all. Just too used to one trigger, one pull. Good luck, someone here will know all about them!

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

This is the piece or 'fly' that I think you are speaking to however I don't see it can be turned over as there's a hold that the pin fits in

I am not sure how that fly is made. Check to see if the shaft is connected to the fly. From the photo it looks like the shaft penetrates the fly with the possibly of just a tight fit. See if the shaft will drive out. You are out nothing because it is useless the way it is. OR.....If you are an airplane engine mechanic, you should be able to cut the shaft off, and make another. Then turn the fly over. The other choice is to call L and R.
Good Luck
Larry

 

[Sun City]

It’s a Davis Lock….my error so I think I’ll send there! Tried things you suggested to no avail! Thank you!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Hello! Just an idea I’ve seen before once or twice. Verify that the lock works off the gun. Reinstall the lock. Remove the trigger assembly completely. Using a tool, like a screwdriver or something similar, push on the sear. If the gun works, the trigger bar could be too high or the triggers inletted too deep. If the lock does not work correctly when doing this, the fly will be the problem. Getting the angle geometry on the fly is a real tricky business on a factory lock. Most work OK but usually can be tuned better. If the lock is the trouble and not the trigger assembly, send the lock back to L&R for repair or send it to Brad Emig at Cabin Creek.

I too wondered if the set trigger had enough umph to clear the sear from the fly adequately.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I bought a custom flintlock about 5 years back and this rifle is really close to putting me on the ‘nut farm’! It’s a Half-Stock Hawken .54 caliber with L&R Lock and Davis set trigger…..really accurate….when I can get it to fire!! When cocked, trigger set and front trigger pulled the **** stops on half ****!! The lock functions as it’s supposed to when removed from stock! I’ve used lip stick on the lock area to determine where if the lick was touching wood anywhere but there is no indication of internal interefence of wood with the lock! I’ve removed the trigger assembly and checked it but found nothing odd! I’m completely stumped!

When the lock is out of the stock, I can think of two things. One is that when you "pull" the trigger of the rifle, you are using more force to drop the hammer than the striker. Try tapping it with a piece of metal equal to the striker weight and see what happens. Best done with the lock in a padded vice.

My hammer did this when the hammer was rubbing the wood of the stock due to inadequate clearance.

A third possible to check is pressure on the lock parts when the lock is tightened to the stock. Put the lock in the stock and very lightly screw it in. if the lock fires, you have your answer.

I would like to know what is causing this please.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I too wondered if the set trigger had enough umph to clear the sear from the fly adequately.

In my thoughts: All the umph that is needed is to clear the full ****. The mainspring is the energy. That stupid fly is ars backwards, causing the sear to engage in the halfcock.
Larry

 

[JCKelly]

Whoever made your rifle obviously never even fired it to see if it worked.
Suppose he never heard of proof testing?
Might be nice to tell us who he was, so we can avoid such interesting problems.

Ages ago when I built & sold a few rifles I at least fired them enough to approximately sight them in. Whatever errors I perhaps made, at least my rifles would fire & more or less HIT.
Recall sighting in a 48" barreled flint rifle on a public range West of Pontiac, Michigan. Things then were more casual, there was a quart glass bottle set up at 50 yards. Maybe 3 Pontiac residents were shooting at it from the bench rest, with some lever action Unmentionable. Missed it. They ran out of ammo & looked to be leaving, so I asked if they were finished? I thought they said yes, but I really did not understand the Pontiac dialect. Stood up, and with my very long flint rifle, off-hand, made dust of that bottle. Got a lot of cheers from most - if not all - on that range.

 

[Jayhawkdan]

It’s a Davis Lock….my error so I think I’ll send there! Tried things you suggested to no avail! Thank you!

Hi Sun City!! I think you have hit on the perfect solution, i.e. just send it to Davis Lock with your description of the problem(s) you're having. In the way of unsolicited advice, I would send both the lock assembly and the trigger assembly. Good luck!!

Jayhawk (Dan)

 

[Brokennock]

I don't care for a set trigger at all. Just too used to one trigger, one pull. Good luck, someone here will know all about them!

???

 

[54ball]

Everybody is on the ....fly.

A fly is essential for with a set trigger but....
Why will the rifle not fire Unset just off the front trigger?
The front trigger not tripping the lock unset is a big issue and this has nothing to with the fly. It has everything to do with trigger location, depth, and the geometry in relation to the sear bar of the lock.

The front trigger unset “should” be able to trip the lock, even if the fly was missing. Why?Because the trigger finger is holding the sear bar up off the tumbler.

If the fly works like some have described, the lock would never go back into half **** after being fully cocked.

The fly lets a set trigger work. A set trigger is quick. Not only that it has to trip with enough force so the fly will work. If the trigger is not deep enough or hitting hard enough it will not fire the lock even if the fly is working.

The first thing to do is find out why the front trigger will not fire the lock unset.

It sounds like something is off on the geometry.

Another thing to try is tightening the spring screw on the trigger plate. This will increase tension on the set trigger. This may make the rifle fire “set”.
Still though, this does not explain why the rifle cannot be fired just off the front trigger unset.
This would be easy to explain if it was a single stage simple set “like a dedicated target rifle” but this is double stage double set. The front trigger should shoot rifle unset.

 

[duca]

Very interesting read...like someone else said, try tapping the shaft to the other side of the Fly and see if the works. It looks like it might be pressure fit.
Good luck with this Lock. Looking forward to hearing your success!

Anthony

 

[Britsmoothy]

Everybody is on the ....fly.

A fly is essential for with a set trigger but....
Why will the rifle not fire Unset just off the front trigger?
The front trigger not tripping the lock unset is a big issue and this has nothing to with the fly. It has everything to do with trigger location, depth, and the geometry in relation to the sear bar of the lock.

The front trigger unset “should” be able to trip the lock, even if the fly was missing. Why?Because the trigger finger is holding the sear bar up off the tumbler.

If the fly works like some have described, the lock would never go back into half **** after being fully cocked.

The fly lets a set trigger work. A set trigger is quick. Not only that it has to trip with enough force so the fly will work. If the trigger is not deep enough or hitting hard enough it will not fire the lock even if the fly is working.

The first thing to do is find out why the front trigger will not fire the lock unset.

It sounds like something is off on the geometry.

Another thing to try is tightening the spring screw on the trigger plate. This will increase tension on the set trigger. This may make the rifle fire “set”.
Still though, this does not explain why the rifle cannot be fired just off the front trigger unset.
This would be easy to explain if it was a single stage simple set “like a dedicated target rifle” but this is double stage double set. The front trigger should shoot rifle unset.

You explained it perfectly to what I was wondering. And or the sear bar is just not lifting enough.