I have a conflict in information and would like an opinion

[Bountyhunter]

Most hunting isnt done at 25 yards. Most hunting is done at 50 to 150 yards. That is the reason for the upper load limits. It is your retained energy at range that counts.

 

[Keppy]

Most hunting isnt done at 25 yards.
You said
Most hunting is done at 50 to 150 yards.
What kind of groups can you get at 150yds?
That is the reason for the upper load limits. It is your retained energy at range that counts.

Just curious. My hunting with open sights,with ML is anything under 75yds. My eyes and to hold steady without a rest is my limit.

 

Your most accurate load is your "best load". Hitting your mark with a .50 caliber will kill the animal.

Well, he is talking about elk and his most accurate load could end up being 45 or 50 grains, sooo. . . . . . Maybe a bit light?

First of all, I doubt that would be the case, and if it were, then you need to get a bigger gun, if you plan to hunt large game with it. The point is, you use an accurate gun that will do the job. (I think you know this) :shake:

 

[MikeChapin]

Max loads are generally a waste of powder. I do a lot paper competion and have a load for 25 and 50 yards and another at 100 that has the the same POI/POA of the ligher load. That is the one I use for hunting. It is an accurate load and allows me to place the shot where I want.

I don't use a .50 to hunt elk. I use my .54 and .58 for that stuff. I do use a 50 on mule deer. One deer I shot that was quartered towards me was hit with a RB with 70 gr. 3F at 70 yards. The ball shattered the shoulder blade, broke a rib, when through both lungs and liver and broke a short rib on the opposite side. The ball was lodged under the the skin on the opposite side. The deer raised her leg and collapsed on the spot.

That wasn't a max load by any means but was definitly enough to get the job done. All the deer hit at that range with a better hit have the ball go through and through on the chest cavity.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning Bob Gular,

I have to disagree with your blanket statement that anything over 80 grains of powder in a 50 caliber muzzle loader is a waste of powder.

Length of the barrel, rate of rifling twist, and distance to the target are three factors that must be added to the equation when determining what is the maximum powder charge to be used in a 50 caliber muzzle loading rifle.

Then, there is the level of expected or desired accuracy. While 80 grains may be all of the powder that MIGHT be effectively burned in a 28-32 inch long barrel with a 1-48" rifling twist rate, it is not in my 50 caliber that has a 42 inch long barrel with a 1-72 inch rifling twist rate.

This barrel requires a minimum charge of 110 grains of 2FF black powder to attain the velocity
required to maximize accuracy.

This barrel is not an "exception" to the 80 grain statement. All of my friends who shoot barrels of the same specs use 110 grains to 125 grains of 2FF black powder to achieve accuracy.

Even shorter (32"-36") 50 caliber barrels with a 1-72" rifling twist rate will require more powder to attain the velocity needed to shoot a patched round ball accurately beyound 50 yards.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Liberal/Socialist Politicians LIE!!! USA FREEDOMS DIE!!!!

 

[Rat Trapper]

In Colorado the Muzzle loading tags are by drawing, normally with a waiting period until enough points are earned to draw. Normally most people who hunt Colorado are only there for a short time period. The one shot offered, may not be what most of us would like, but it is the only one being offered. Therefore I'd recommend serious thought about using conical bullets like the Hornady great plains bullet. If for some reason you just can not bring yourself to using a conical, take a 54 or 58. If you do not put that first bullet where it needs to go, a wounded elk can go places you will wish you had never seen. As an ex elk guide, I have seen dead elk that had to be removed from some real nasty terrain. Places where you can not get horses or ATV's. Removal is on your back only and then up hill. Use enough gun, and hit 'em right the first time or don't shoot!

 

[Frank/Pa]

Anything over 80 grains is wasted on a .50 unless you like seeing a fireball at the muzzle. IMHO both the published maximums are a waste of expensive powder.
Just a couple sparks from this side of the fire.

Ditto:

 

Good Morning Bob Gular,

I have to disagree with your blanket statement that anything over 80 grains of powder in a 50 caliber muzzle loader is a waste of powder.

Length of the barrel, rate of rifling twist, and distance to the target are three factors that must be added to the equation when determining what is the maximum powder charge to be used in a 50 caliber muzzle loading rifle.

Then, there is the level of expected or desired accuracy. While 80 grains may be all of the powder that MIGHT be effectively burned in a 28-32 inch long barrel with a 1-48" rifling twist rate, it is not in my 50 caliber that has a 42 inch long barrel with a 1-72 inch rifling twist rate.

This barrel requires a minimum charge of 110 grains of 2FF black powder to attain the velocity
required to maximize accuracy.

This barrel is not an "exception" to the 80 grain statement. All of my friends who shoot barrels of the same specs use 110 grains to 125 grains of 2FF black powder to achieve accuracy.

Even shorter (32"-36") 50 caliber barrels with a 1-72" rifling twist rate will require more powder to attain the velocity needed to shoot a patched round ball accurately beyound 50 yards.

DITTO!!!

 

[Grey Hawk]

Thanks for the info, I have hunted CO 6 times now always with Modern rifle / Late season Cow up in Craig. I will be drawing for 50/501 or 500, Central CO. I have 11 acres in the Hartsel area. I am now considering a new barrel for my GPR a .54 Lyman Hunter barrel, faster twist able to handle conicals...$189 from "The Gun Works Emporium in OR.

Thanks to all..I'll let you know wither I go flint or cap..but I'm with you one shot one kill, or get ready for a long chase.

DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME :thumbsup:

Grey Hawk

 

[tjohnson56]

What kind of barrel are you getting from Gun Works? Is it a Oregon barrel, seems like thats what I saw on their site?

Have you ever had one of these and are they a high quality barrel?

 

[Bob Gular]

Good Morning John,
I am basing my opinion using a 42 inch GM barrel with a 1/70 twist and flintlock ignition that prints sub two inch groups at fifty yards and fat three inch groups at one hundred yards using 60 grains of 3F Goex or 75 grains of 2F. Both these loads will do a pass through on a whitetail and I don't think more powder would make them any deader. I don't want to start an arguement, but I do not agree that high velocity is required for accuracy, It's a balance of powder, patch, ball, and consistent load compression that does the job. At least that's what I have found in fourty odd years of shooting these things. But then, maybe things are different in Texas.
Just a couple more sparks from this side of the fire.

 

[Grey Hawk]

If you click on the Custom and Production Guns: Lyman : Barrels

They are MFG by Lyman or the MFG they use for their barrels. I also contacted Suzi and they can special order a flint in for the same price.

Grey Hawk

 

[paulvallandigham]

Bob: Your 42 inch barrel in .50 caliber is going to burn, efficiently, about 95 grains of powder. So your accurate load for hunting( 60 grains FFFg, and 75 grains FFg) is well under that maximum efficient burning load. John Hinnant's 110-120 grain loads are well above the maximum, even for his gun and its ROT. Since accuracy of any given powder charge is a function of the barrel harmonics of a given barrel, and each gun is going to have its own " sweet spot " in velocity, There can be legitimate( and are!) difference between gun barrels as to what load( and velocity)shoots the most accurate in a given barrel. Patch thickness, patch lube, ball diameter vs. Bore diameter, Groove diameter, and even that ROT can affect accuracy. But more important will be the choice of patch and lubes, powder charges, and even the condition of the muzzle of the guns.

John's 1:72 ROT .50 should be able to shoot better groups at 100 yds than he reports. Your gun is virtually the same, at 1:70 ROT. John is a long time target shooter, and knows how to ring out accuracy from his MLers. I don't have any desire to second guess him about his gun, much less John's shooting ability. He may just have a gun that is not going to give those small groups with your recommended loads.

I have stopped being a believer that more powder is needed to get better groups out at 100 yds, because that is NOT my experience. And, after looking at the loss of velocity down range, comparing different powder charges and MVs, I join you in believing that the .50 caliber RB is only going to do so much "killing" out at 100 yds, and no more. Its adequate for most deer.

Its marginal at that distance on something as large as Elk, but all that means is the shooter has to know his gun, and be capable of placing his shot very accurately on an Elk to get a clean kill. Under 100 yds, you should be able to kill Elk quite nicely with that .50.

My .50 cal., 39 inch barrel, 1:48 ROT gun shoots 75 grains of FFg very accurately at 100 yds, FYI.

 

[ronrryan]

It is really fascinating to read the variety of locations and geography of our members, not to mention the variety of game animals. I hunted often and passionately over many parts of New York state, and of course I have never had the great experience of seeing an elk or moose or grizzly bear up close, only on TV or VCR. Shot and/or helped drag out (and eat) many, many deer over 50 years hunting. So if somebody asked me for advice about hunting deer in thick woods in my kind of cover, I could try to be helpful. But anything beyond that, I should keep my trap shut and learn. It is an amazing and rewarding website, for which we all are thankful. Good smoke, Ron in FL

 

[paulvallandigham]

While whitetails are occasionally caught out in an open field, usually crossing it to get from day beds, to feeding areas, or from feeding areas to night beds, they are, as a species, generally found in edge brush, on which they feed, and use as cover. They are not Antelope, a member of the goat family, that prefers open prairie, where its fine vision can protect it from predators, or Mule Deer, that are comfortable in more open area, while tending to sleep on hill(mountain) sides in the day to catch the sun's heat. I think the wide range of membership also includes a wide range of terrain that is hunted, and animals hunted. All deer are not the same. While the areas west of the Mississippi River are more open, and less wooded, you still find the Whitetails living along the wooded areas in the river bottoms.

I live in a largely Row-crop Agricultural county, with vast stretches where you see no trees or fences, or brushlines at all. The deer move out into those open areas only during the summer months when the corn is tall, and good "eats". When harvesting begins, the deer move back to the woods and treelines. Some deer have some bad habits on where they walk after the corn is harvested, and its those that are taken by first archers, and then gunners. The wise old boys learned long before to stay in the thick stuff, feed in the open only at the edges, and only at night, and to move into heavy cover long before there is enough light for hunters( predators to see them.) I have seen large bucks laying down in swales that were not deep enough for most hunters to believe a rabbit could be found in them. The old boys learn to stay put and let hunters walk right past them. Its the does and yearlings that get skiddish, and bust out of cover at the sight of a human, while the old guys stay and watch. I don't see this characteristic behavior changing much as you move into Iowa, or Kansas, and Nebraska, all states with record book Whitetails.

I find it interesting that we hear so few reports on this forum of successful Mule Deer hunters. You would think the numbers would be on the same order as Elk successes. :hmm:

 

[Bob Gular]

?????

 

While whitetails are occasionally caught out in an open field, usually crossing it to get from day beds, to feeding areas, or from feeding areas to night beds, they are, as a species, generally found in edge brush, on which they feed, and use as cover. They are not Antelope, a member of the goat family, that prefers open prairie, where its fine vision can protect it from predators, or Mule Deer, that are comfortable in more open area, while tending to sleep on hill(mountain) sides in the day to catch the sun's heat. I think the wide range of membership also includes a wide range of terrain that is hunted, and animals hunted. All deer are not the same. While the areas west of the Mississippi River are more open, and less wooded, you still find the Whitetails living along the wooded areas in the river bottoms.

I live in a largely Row-crop Agricultural county, with vast stretches where you see no trees or fences, or brushlines at all. The deer move out into those open areas only during the summer months when the corn is tall, and good "eats". When harvesting begins, the deer move back to the woods and treelines. Some deer have some bad habits on where they walk after the corn is harvested, and its those that are taken by first archers, and then gunners. The wise old boys learned long before to stay in the thick stuff, feed in the open only at the edges, and only at night, and to move into heavy cover long before there is enough light for hunters( predators to see them.) I have seen large bucks laying down in swales that were not deep enough for most hunters to believe a rabbit could be found in them. The old boys learn to stay put and let hunters walk right past them. Its the does and yearlings that get skiddish, and bust out of cover at the sight of a human, while the old guys stay and watch. I don't see this characteristic behavior changing much as you move into Iowa, or Kansas, and Nebraska, all states with record book Whitetails.

I find it interesting that we hear so few reports on this forum of successful Mule Deer hunters. You would think the numbers would be on the same order as Elk successes. :hmm:

Are you drunk or just working on it? :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Irish13]

First of all I don't wont' to start no arguments, I am just going to tell you my 2 cents and it don't mean nothing. I don't know about balistics and velocitys and all that other fancy jargin. What I do know is that here in Texas, I have carried a Southern Poor boy built by Jack Garner in 1992. It has a 42" barrel, Siler Lock and plain maple stock. IT was my first flinter. It is a .50 cal and I shoot 70grs of 3fff with a .490 rb and pillow tick patch. I have taken several white tails, several mule deer, and alot of big hogs . I did not change a dadburn thing on any animal. I shot them all with the same load, same grain and in the same place, right behind the shoulder, and they all died. The farthest shot I took was 78 yards. The closest was 35. Now if I had shot them with more powder would they be more dead, I don't know, but I guarentee they would not have tasted no different as I dragged them through the gravy.
So are things different in Texas, no sir. You hit them wrong they give you a merry chase, you hit em right and get the grease hot!! Shot placement is what it is all about.

Thank you kindly,
Irish

 

[longcruise]

marmotslayer Said:Quote:Your most accurate load is your "best load". Hitting your mark with a .50 caliber will kill the animal.





Well, he is talking about elk and his most accurate load could end up being 45 or 50 grains, sooo. . . . . . Maybe a bit light?




Has that ever happened with a GPR?

I doubt it and bow to your common sense!

 

[longcruise]

First of all, I doubt that would be the case, and if it were, then you need to get a bigger gun, if you plan to hunt large game with it. The point is, you use an accurate gun that will do the job. (I think you know this)

I concede!

And, having had adequate experience with elk and round balls, I'm going to emphasize your "bigger gun" thought. His .50 is legal but .50s, round balls and elk have always made me apprehensive. That's just me though I'm sure there are plenty of hunters here who have done a bang up job of whacking elk with .50 and a ball but OTOH, most of the CO hunters I know prefer a .54 at least.