I have an old firearm

[andrewfs]

The previous owner and her sister gave me an old firearm, told me it came out of VA sometime around Civil War time. I am curious as to where it was made, who made it etc. I have a lot of photo's I took of it but haven't found anyplace here to post them. hmm It looks like a Vincent Stock, It is a half stock, 40 caliber Octagon barrel with 7 sided bore,, groove in the center of all 7 insides.I have been told it looks like it was formerly a flintlock, converted to a percussion. I was told it could possibly have been made in St Louis, I have no idea of its origin other than what the two sisters remember hearing from their Uncle. How do we upload pictures of rifle?

 

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/223970/

 

[andrewfs]

ahh I thought maybe I would have to put them online, here are some pictures of the rifle

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[Va.Manuf.06]

Ohio? Illinois? Any time between 1850 - 1880, maybe a little later. It was never a flintlock.

 

[andrewfs]

thanks, I appreciate that

 

[Many Klatch]

Nice gun, looks shootable. There certainly looks like there is enough thickness to the barrel. You ought to have a gunsmith that knows about old guns take a look at it and put a new nipple on it for you and look the gun over.

How does the bore look, have you run a patch down it?

Have you checked to see if it is still loaded? About 1/4rd of the originals that I have heard of that were "found in the attic" were still loaded.

Many Klatch

 

[andrewfs]

I haven't run a patch down it but I have shone a bright light down it to look at the rifling. It is seven sided with a groove full length down the inside of each side. I am in the process of trying to find a gunsmith around here who may know something about it,but, as we live out in the middle of nowhere, I haven't had any luck yet.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Contact the Texas Muzzle loading Rifle Association- they have a website-- and ask them to give you the name of someone who can check the gun for you. They shoot at Brady, Texas. There are also people up at Texarkana, Texas/Arkansas, who would help you with this kind of thing. That is where the magazine, Muzzleloader, is published. That doesn't mean you will find someone living in your back yard. Texas is a rather large state. However, we have members here from all over that state.

 

[robinghewitt]

That looks remarkably like the work of James Bown & Son or someone similar, a fancy $20 gun.

Bown set up the Enterprise Gun Works at the comfortable end of the Oregon trail and mass produced rifles to sell to the colonists heading west. There was a thriving industry making covered wagons pots and pans etc. Lord alone knows where they got enough horses :grin:

Nobody actually agrees with me but I have an idea that somewhere the colonists had picked up an erroneous notion of what an American rifle looked like, an emigration poster perhaps, and that is exactly what Bown, and others like him, made. Bown was an ironworker by trade and it shows, the ironwork on his guns is first rate but the wood and brass looks like it was subcontracted to someone on a fixed rate per rifle, someone who didn't care.

You can't sell people what they need, you have to sell them what they want, uncomfortable butt plates and incredibly nose heavy. The butt plates look even more uncomfortable in Bown's woodcut advertising, incredibly stylised :thumbsup:

 

[andrewfs]

that could possibly be what it is, The sisters who gave it to me said that their Uncle, Stephen Thomas Stutler, was considered a "wealthy" farmer. I will check out the Bown ? that you talk about. Thanks!
drew

 

[andrewfs]

There is some, not a lot of information online about Bown and Son. I found pictures of two of their model rifles and you are right, my gun looks very similar to theirs. According to the websites I found, Bown made the basic rifle then farmed them out to other retailers who put their own hardware on them. I am now of the mind that my gun is indeed one of these. Many thanks

 

[Dave K]

I have the "family" gun which is a James Bown and Son. James Bown was active building guns from 1848-1887. A partnership started with James Bown and John Tetley which created the Bown & Tetley and went from 1848 to 1862. James continued from 1862 to 1871 by himself as just James Bown. In 1871 his son William H. joined the company, creating James Bown & Son. They sold the buisness in 1887 to Brown & Hirth. Bown also used the trade name Enterprise Gun Works on the top flat of some of their guns. I have no knowledge if all guns are marked but of course I have seen them marked as Bown & Tetley, James Bown and then James Bown & Son of the top flat depending on the years. Our gun says James Bown & Son , Enterprise Gun Works and there is a logo of a deer that says "Kill Deer" with it on the top flat. Lock is marked Goulcher.

 

[andrewfs]

That is very interesting. My gun has no markings on the barrel at all, at least none that can be discerned. The lady who gave it to me says her uncle gave it to her 20 yrs ago and he had passed it along since their great (4x) uncle originally bought it. It looks exactly like the model 6 that Bown made as far as I can tell. Thanks so much for the information on them.

 

[Herb]

The book "The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania" by Rosenberger and Kaufmann has a history of the Enterprise Gun Works, with one rifle illustrated. It is a .26 caliber, 37" barrel, has a cap box and looks much like yours, though plainer. Our museum here has a Bown and Tetley rifle, but I don't remember what it looks like. More of a plains rifle, I think. Robin, I am amazed at your knowledge of this subject!

 

[robinghewitt]

Robin, I am amazed at your knowledge of this subject!

I went on a gun buying splurge some years ago and the heap included a Bown with all the marks. He's the only American rifle maker I recognise :redface:

 

[andrewfs]

I am leaning toward Caleb Vincent As the maker of this rifle. I have emailed several pictures to one of the men from Antique Roadshow, and I am hopeful that he will be able to give me a good indentification.

 

[andrewfs]

I found another website that deals exclusively with percussion and flintlock rifles. He told me what the original owners had told me. It is a Plains Rifle from around 1850. So many were made by so many gunsmiths that it is almost impossible to say who actually made the rifle. I asked what if anything I should insure it for, his opinion 1200--1500 dollars.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A true plains rifle would usually carry a larger bore than .40 caliber. This one looks more like it came from further east.

 

[crockett]

There are no marking on the gun? What about the underside of the barrel or inside of the lock? What does the barrel channel look like?

 

[Dphar]

I am leaning toward Caleb Vincent As the maker of this rifle. I have emailed several pictures to one of the men from Antique Roadshow, and I am hopeful that he will be able to give me a good indentification.

I *seriously doubt* that one of the Vincents made this. Not a plains rifle either. Bore too small. If made in St Louis it was for local trade like the Hawken "Squirrel rifles".

Vincents had very nice lines, very classy. This one does not qualify. Just a typical 1/2 stock gun of the mid-19th Century with some inlays added to it.

Dan