I have to rethink the spare cylinder idea

[M. De Land]

And getting on a horse.

Wasn't the little Colt model 49 one of their all time best sellers in the percussion era ?

 

[M. De Land]

Several years ago there was a hostage situation in my town and it ended when the police rushed the house and fired iirc 17 rounds hitting the villain with a single round but did manage to hit the 7 year old boy 5 times.
Speaks well for the top of the line training program........ NOT.

I've watched a few of the police training venues at our local range and it makes me wonder about the average officers gun handling proficiency?

 

[M. De Land]

I've watched a few of the police training venues at our local range and it makes me wonder about the average officers gun handling proficiency?

I believe round counting was a training regimen in the revolver days but not sure it is taught now days.

 

[nick_1]

My experience with LEO pistol proficiency is that the vast majority of officers literally suck at handling pistols. The few that are good are Very Good. This is probably also true for the vast majority of shooters in general. The amount of training it takes to get good and stay good with a pistol is ridiculous.
I helped a friend prepare for his qualification years ago. He asked me if I thought he would pass. We were martial arts instructors at the same academy so I didn't sugar coat it. He had zero prior experience with firearms and six weeks of training is a drop in the bucket.. I said if you pass it doesn't say much for the system. He passed.

 

[M. De Land]

My experience with LEO pistol proficiency is that the vast majority of officers literally suck at handling pistols. The few that are good are Very Good. This is probably also true for the vast majority of shooters in general. The amount of training it takes to get good and stay good with a pistol is ridiculous.
I helped a friend prepare for his qualification years ago. He asked me if I thought he would pass. We were martial arts instructors at the same academy so I didn't sugar coat it. He had zero prior experience with firearms and six weeks of training is a drop in the bucket.. I said if you pass it doesn't say much for the system. He passed.

Good job ! I was a judo instructor 50 years ago while in the service. We had a club on base and competed with local dojos. My how the years fly by !

 

[Bad Karma]

My experience with LEO pistol proficiency is that the vast majority of officers literally suck at handling pistols. The few that are good are Very Good. This is probably also true for the vast majority of shooters in general. The amount of training it takes to get good and stay good with a pistol is ridiculous.
I helped a friend prepare for his qualification years ago. He asked me if I thought he would pass. We were martial arts instructors at the same academy so I didn't sugar coat it. He had zero prior experience with firearms and six weeks of training is a drop in the bucket.. I said if you pass it doesn't say much for the system. He passed.

I was a deputy for a few years and the other deputies and I were serious about our training and never missed an opportunity to test ourselves against ourselves and other departments. The front range departments were usually home to one or two excellent shooters in departments fielding hundreds of officers. Our Sheriff was generous with his training budgets and being at that time a somewhat remote rural county a deputy might stop along a county road or trailhead and spend a few minutes rolling cans in an arroyo. I used to pack my cap and ball and other guns with me for these sessions.
I can imagine how that would fly these days.

 

[Bad Karma]

Wasn't the little Colt model 49 one of their all time best sellers in the percussion era ?

The pocket and police pistols were huge sellers. Cheap for the quality, and judged by the public as entirely suited for the task they sold like hotcakes.

 

[nick_1]

Russ James was the Captain of the US shooting team in the late 80s and the firearms instructor for his department in CT. His wife Debbie was women's world champion. I would see those guys once or twice a month at club matches that I would attend in MA or NH. and always try to get on their squad. They were very helpful. We had a 35yrd head shot behind a hostage and Rus the expert police instructor told us. "you would Never take this shot in real life" However.. one of my officers who barely qualifies and does the absolute minimum required to qualify every year took this shot and made it. The officer simply pointed their pistol in the direction of the situation, pulled the trigger, missed the hostage and hit the bad guy. Better to be lucky than good ...

 

[M. De Land]

The pocket and police pistols were huge sellers. Cheap for the quality, and judged by the public as entirely suited for the task they sold like hotcakes.

I watched another open top review the other night by Mike Belveau and he reiterated how little value he places on end fitting of the arbor in response to some reviews of people "cacking" about it . He has made the fix and has some original Colts and reproductions fitted both ways. He says there's more going on in the accuracy department then just end fit of the arbor and he's been testing both regularly for 40 years. He stated it may make a difference between a 10 and an X but he's never been able to prove it one way or the other. That agrees with my findings as well and was satisfying to hear from a recognized authority who test shoots these guns regularly and reports on them for a living.

 

[nick_1]

back to the Phil Spangenberger article. that boxed set was obviously a very wealthy mans outfit. I wonder if the price point of the extra cylinder made it seem like a better deal to just buy two pistols? Certainly all the accounts I have read of scouts on the plains and the border wars in Kansas and Missouria have all been horseman with two or more revolvers to go with their rifle or carbine. I do recall an account by a Texas ranger of what an advantage the Paterson was when they fought Comanches. I cant remember if he mentioned the extra cylinders that they came with? I thought he did mention having two of them and that ten shots was ground breaking firepower at the time. I will try and look up that book again.

 

[M. De Land]

back to the Phil Spangenberger article. that boxed set was obviously a very wealthy mans outfit. I wonder if the price point of the extra cylinder made it seem like a better deal to just buy two pistols? Certainly all the accounts I have read of scouts on the plains and the border wars in Kansas and Missouria have all been horseman with two or more revolvers to go with their rifle or carbine. I do recall an account by a Texas ranger of what an advantage the Paterson was when they fought Comanches. I cant remember if he mentioned the extra cylinders that they came with? I thought he did mention having two of them and that ten shots was ground breaking firepower at the time. I will try and look up that book again.

I think I remember that the Pattersons were issued to the rangers in pairs just as the Walkers were. They were purchased by the Texas Navy and put in storage when the Navy disbanded and then were issued in pairs to the Ranger to fight Comanhes and Apaches.

 

[Bad Karma]

I believe round counting was a training regimen in the revolver days but not sure it is taught now days.

Not round counting per se but tactical reloads are taught.

I watched another open top review the other night by Mike Belveau and he reiterated how little value he places on end fitting of the arbor in response to some reviews of people "cacking" about it . He has done the fix and has some original Colts and reproductions fitted both ways. He says there's more going on in the accuracy department then just end fit of the arbor and he's been testing both regularly for 40 years. He stated it may make a difference between a 10 and an X but he's never been able to prove it one way or the other. That agrees with my findings as well and was satisfying to hear from a recognized authority who test shoots these guns regularly and reports on them for a living.

Oh Lord…

In one sense I agree with him there. My favorite replicas purchased in the sixties and seventies were all fed a steady diet of full power loads and returned excellent accuracy for me. Minute of snowshoe rabbit, ground squirrel, coyote and grouse. Yet the designer and I assume the dozens of government inspectors felt it was important for a few well articulated reasons. I have a few 2nd Generation Colts I won’t fix, but the rest are or will be. Even the one that I began with has been “fixed”. I can’t say it’s better than before but it didn’t hurt anything and it’s running as well as ever, an old friend.

 

[nick_1]

I think this might be the book with the story of fighting Comanches with Petersons? anyways I just ordered it and will read it again.. I lost a lot of books when I moved two years ago.
www.amazon.com/dp/1695768930?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

 

[M. De Land]

Not round counting per se but tactical reloads are taught.



Oh Lord…

In one sense I agree with him there. My favorite replicas purchased in the sixties and seventies were all fed a steady diet of full power loads and returned excellent accuracy for me. Minute of snowshoe rabbit, ground squirrel, coyote and grouse. Yet the designer and I assume the dozens of government inspectors felt it was important for a few well articulated reasons. I have a few 2nd Generation Colts I won’t fix, but the rest are or will be. Even the one that I began with has been “fixed”. I can’t say it’s better than before but it didn’t hurt anything and it’s running as well as ever, an old friend.

Yeah, I'm fixing mine as well bit by bit after reading your post of how Colt actually fit them as it can't hurt and one wants to make them as good as possible. I think the better wedges have all but accomplished the same goal but it can't hurt and is easy enough to do.

 

[nick_1]

this is another book that I used to have. this fellow at one point had one of the Volcanic lever action pistols that never took off but was the precursor to the Henry rifle. he also started a prairie fire shooting a grouse with his BP scatter gun. really good read.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/151904349X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Smokerr]

My experience with LEO pistol proficiency is that the vast majority of officers literally suck at handling pistols. The few that are good are Very Good. This is probably also true for the vast majority of shooters in general. The amount of training it takes to get good and stay good with a pistol is ridiculous.
I helped a friend prepare for his qualification years ago. He asked me if I thought he would pass. We were martial arts instructors at the same academy so I didn't sugar coat it. He had zero prior experience with firearms and six weeks of training is a drop in the bucket.. I said if you pass it doesn't say much for the system. He passed.

The assumption by the public is that LEO are gun guys because they carry guns. Most carry them and pass the tests and have low if any interest in guns.

I don't blame them or the departments. You have an entire spectrum of of interest and training has to cover all aspects of the job. Some never even fire their guns during a career.

On the flip side shooting pistols was my entertainment when I was young. I shot what was the Trooper Practical Police Course back in 76. Aced it and came in 4 on the gun board. Or as the guy who totaled up my score said, keep in mind the instructors here are to be on the pistol team.

Great advantage that they used the N frame in 357, I had been shooting the 41 mag (N Frame of course). Mine were hot loads and the PPC was 38 wadcutters. Like shooting a 22. All you had to do was assess how to run the course with the two speedloaders provided and the loose 50 rounds. There were places you had to shoot fast with reloads and others you could put the loose rounds in as you had time. Generous X zone, aka center of mass. I shot it SA. I never saw a need for DA frankly. There is a place for it but shot placement is what drives success.

Granted it also helped I was a grunt labor at the time and my arms were like like an iron beams.

 

[nick_1]

I have shot a fair bit of PPC never really good at it. the 50 yard line separates the real pistol shooters. Your pretty much doomed when there are a couple of guys in the match that will shoot perfect scores every time and count the Xs to find the tie breaker... One of those guys was a game warden and the other a corrections officer. Jim Cirillo was very good at that game.

Found this on the internet..

At the first Bianchi Cup in 1979, I shot on the same squad as my friend Jim Cirillo, the legendary NYPD Stakeout Squad gunfighter. As we walked between stages, he blurted, “Jesus Christ, I never felt this much pressure in any of my gunfights!” I asked him why and he replied, “There weren’t all these people watching you, and there wasn’t all this time to build up to it!”

 

[45D]

I think the better wedges have all but accomplished the same goal but .

 

[D Yager]

He's off his meds again.

 

[Smokerr]

Sigh

As far as LEO goes, its one of the tou9ghest jobs out there. Only worse one I know is dealing with Psychotic patients that a friend has done.

You have that conflict of all the other training needed that is most used, department money, range availability. Our department got its own range but its 15 miles North. They can use the local range but they have to reserve it.

In the case of Troopers, those guys are in small units or solo all over the State.

One of the best ones I read had to do with a range officer who was a whiz at qualifying. His antithesis was a street cop who had been in a number of gun fights and shot really well, won all of them, but barely qualified at the range.

The Range Officer had to fill in on the street at one point and utterly failed when he got into a gun fight.

For some reason when I take tests I get hyper focused and do better than my general course work (that applied to flying airplanes as well, my i9nsruaor thought I was marginal enough to require the Chief institutor to do a check ride, it was a check on the instruction as well as the student (me). I aced the test ride. Then my instructor comes to me and, you made me look really bad, what the heck...... Uh sorry.

He got back at me latter. Bad weather day and he said we can just go do touch and goes and its a challenge with the nasty winds. I could not land the airplane worth a hoot (not dangerous but not good landings either). He said, want me to do it? Sure, you ain';t going to do any better. He touched it onto the runway in equally bad gusts like it was glass. Ok, I give up, let park it, not my day.

Until you have someone shooting at you, you will not know how you will react.