IAB Sharps Gardone

[Erwan]

Huh?

A Sharps 1848 is not a breech loader in the sens that you think...

What can I say if you don't know about these transitional weapons and have never tried one?
What can you say if you have never in your life looked for the right paper or fabric and the right treatment to give it a complete burning ?
What can I say if you don't know how to make a proper cartridge with a sheet of paper or a piece of flax...
What can I say if you don't know what it's like to battle with a falling block that just wants to block and still enjoy it and do it again ?...
What can I say if at the end of a series you're going to see the results and what you've done with a weapon that theoretically has nothing to work like yours .308 caliber that you certainly have and not me ?

What to say and how to explain the inexplicable to someone who puts on the same level a 45-70 with metal cartridge and a .54 paper (in my case it's more the flax) and has never tested these weapons of transition between the ML and the cartridges weapons except that it's not called a breech loading weapon but a weapon comparable to what was done in the 17th century in Germany with flintlock weapons loading through the breech with steel case and working with a flint...

Do you you know something about those arms ? They were however breech-loading weapons and people haven't crossed over to the dark side of the force for all that...

It's too complicated and it would be a lot of time wasted to explain all that: it takes time and consistency to get good results with those falling blocks shooting and it's much easier and simpler to shoot either with a pure ML (I know that it is so) or a pure breech loading weapon.

But to talk about it you have to know a little bit more about that and make the difference between Quigley and the Berdan Sharpshooter of the Civil War ...

You must see, try, succeed, think what you are doing and then, when you had tested you could talk and criticize.
If you haven't understood the meaning of this form of shooting, what a Sharps 1848 is and the and the ultimate reason of this form of shooting I pity you: you loose something great and so you stay thinking about your 45-70 and your .308, me about an other thing that you that that evidently don't understand...

There you can see some breech loaders largely olders than your ML:

Spoiler

Another one:

Spoiler

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thank you, Erwan. Now those are breech loaders that we can talk about.

 

[gemmer]

Rickystl,

If you don't want to cast your own bullets, The fellow connected with Lodgewood has a good reputation. You will spend a small fortune on shipping costs. You should slug your bore, but your rifle has seven grooves which makes it difficult to measure the groove to groove dimension. You rifle "should" have a .520 bore and .540 groove sizes which means you want a bullet that's at least .541.I would take advantage of the tubes Charlie sent you and use a ringtail Xmas tree bullet that they're intended for. Charlie recommends a .544 bullet, cast 30:1 I use a ringtail from a limited edition Lee .544 mould that I got from Lodgewood. My tubes are 1 3/8" long and with my bullet, the cartridge base is right at the end of the breech, which is what you want. My tube will hold 60 gr of drop tubed Swiss 2f in my Sporter, which was the military service load. You can use less with an over powder wad to keep the powder compacted. Believe me, you don't need anymore powder than 60 gr. SPG is a fine bullet lube. I would not recommend loading loose powder and bullet. A full chamber of powder will produce excessive recoil and not give the best accuracy. Plus you run the risk of excess powder trickling down from the breech, between the bottom of the barrel and the stock, which is a hazard. Explosions have happened because of that. Ask Charlie. The target shown was shot using the load I noted above.

 

[dave951]

Since it's an IAB, I SERIOUSLY doubt it's 540. It's probably more like 550.

 

[gemmer]

His rifle is a Pedersoli Berdan.

 

[Erwan]

I just call a friend shooting a Sharps carbine IAB 54 cal. paper (mine is a Pedersoli) cartridges and after asking him this, he told me :

Bore diameter: 0.518".
Grooves diameter: 0.538"

The Pedersoli Christmas tree mould "classic " with ringtail works fine but without calibration and the "Modern" profile too (ditto Pedersoli carbine)...
So the bullets .541" out of the mould Pedersoli are working good.

Following what I saw of his Sharps at the range.... it works nicely ...

 

[Jaegermeister]

I also cast from the Pedersoli ringtail mould.

 

[rickystl]

WOW!! Thank you ALL for your comments. The percussion cap situation as mentioned above is duly noted.
Gemmer: Thanks for your comments - and sourcing. Much appreciated. It sounds like the breech will actually hold more powder (wonder how much?) than 60 grains of "loose" FFG (?) Although I would not plan on using more than 60. Obviously not necessary and a waste of powder. But if the breech will in fact hold more, I would think that the loose 60 grains would just be sitting behind the bullet in a non-compacted state. Right ? That can't be good for accuracy, along with the hazard aspect mentioned above. So it sounds like these sharps - by design - were made for use with combustible cartridges.
Then it sounds like Charlie's tubes are the way to go. Funny thing is.......when you look at those little tubes it doesn't seem that it will hold 60 grains and a bullet both (?) But I guess I should order some bullets from Lodgewood and try it. LOL I need to slug the bore.

Rick

 

[user 34295]

I also use the Pedersoli Christmas Tree mould for my IAB Sharps Carbine. I make my own cardboard tubes and they will hold 60 grains but I get my best accuracy at 100m with 45 grains of Swiss number 3.

 

[hawkeye2]

Using an unsized Rapine ringtail in and Charlies tubes in my Shilo I could get 42 grains of 2f in the tube. The tube had to be cut to 1 3/8" to close the breech. A sized bullet will seat deeper and allow a longer tube and with the new Brooks mold I probably will size them too but haven't cast any yet. Even with a longer tube I probably won't go any higher with the charge and may reduce it depending on the accuracy. If you have a carbine and fire up to 40 60 grain loads in a match you are a better man than I.

 

[Erwan]

60 grains of "loose" FFG (?) Although I would not plan on using more than 60.

You can use more if you like, I have 55 grains Swiss N°2 (FFFg) in linen or paper cartridges and with filler...

The cartridges (mistake: 50m is not 60 yards but ~55 ):

Spoiler

How I make them (you can see the filler):

Spoiler

 

[gemmer]

I tried Pedersoli's xmas tree bullet, but the base is too wide to fit Charlie's tubes and it's rather heavy, over 500 gr. The base on the bullet is intended to fit Pedersoli's brass cases, which are similar to a Gallagher case. The problem is since there's no extractor on the rifle, they're hard to remove. Some guys use a hook shaped wire in the touch hole to pull them out.

 

[user 34295]

I tried Pedersoli's xmas tree bullet, but the base is too wide to fit Charlie's tubes and it's rather heavy, over 500 gr. The base on the bullet is intended to fit Pedersoli's brass cases, which are similar to a Gallagher case. The problem is since there's no extractor on the rifle, they're hard to remove. Some guys use a hook shaped wire in the touch hole to pull them out.

Yes they are .45 at the base, that’s why I make my own tubes using heavy weight paper and a .45 dowel. I’ve also found that not glueing the bullet to the tube improves accuracy. I just allow the lube to overlap onto the tube and once dry that seems enough to hold them in place.

 

[dave951]

Yes they are .45 at the base, that’s why I make my own tubes using heavy weight paper and a .45 dowel. I’ve also found that not glueing the bullet to the tube improves accuracy. I just allow the lube to overlap onto the tube and once dry that seems enough to hold them in place.

I use Charlie's Tubes. I use the cheapest fingernail polish I can find and just apply a small dot on three places on the tube and put onto the tail of the bullet. Works great.

 

[rickystl]

I tried Pedersoli's xmas tree bullet, but the base is too wide to fit Charlie's tubes and it's rather heavy, over 500 gr. The base on the bullet is intended to fit Pedersoli's brass cases, which are similar to a Gallagher case. The problem is since there's no extractor on the rifle, they're hard to remove. Some guys use a hook shaped wire in the touch hole to pull them out.

I must admit, I'm attracted to those Pedersoli brass cases. I would think having a bent piece of stiff wire suspended on a throng around the neck would be an inconvenience, but a minor one. Do you know how much powder those brass cases hold ? Only real problem with using these cases seems to be you are stuck using their mold/bullet. 500+ gr weight does sound heavy. Thats getting into .58+ musket territory. Hmmm.
OK, so Charlie's tubes only hold about 42 grains with a bullet. That sounds like a somewhat light load for a .54. But it also seems that most of the guys who shoot these percussion Sharps shoot the carbines. And I can appreciate the recoil factor when shooting these short carbines. (I know my 45/70 trapdoor carbine kicks like a Missouri mule - and the .577 Snider artillery model is even worse LOL) But I'm thinking the Rifle with it's longer barrel and heavier weight would accommodate a 55-60 grain charge of FFG, and still be comfortable to shoot (?) I know the same charge in my Enfield two-band is very comfortable to shoot. Any thoughts from you guys ? Especially the brass cases ?

I know I seem just full of questions. But I'm learning a bunch on this Thread. Thanks.

Rick

 

[Erwan]

I tried Pedersoli's xmas tree bullet, but the base is too wide to fit Charlie's tubes and it's rather heavy, over 500 gr. The base on the bullet is intended to fit Pedersoli's brass cases, which are similar to a Gallagher case.

Yes they are .45 at the base, that’s why I make my own tubes using heavy weight paper and a .45 dowel. I’ve also found that not glueing the bullet to the tube improves accuracy. I just allow the lube to overlap onto the tube and once dry that seems enough to hold them in place.

I don't understand all what you say or a bit more exactly the problem with the ringtails and the brass tubes or Charlie Han tube...
I dont use brass tube Pedersoli and the Han tubes do not exist in France so I make all my own cartridges from A to Z (I don't make the flax or the paper and the powder )...
The Pedersoli are too low quality and too thick then not enough place inside for the powder. To use that kind of tubes you need to make tool with a steel wire with a hook to pull them out, this is not a good invention but the bullet with ringtail is good...
About the 500 grains of the bullets it was previously the problem between the army and the Sharps factory in 1859: the paper cartridges could not support the weight of this 500 grain bullet well and was tearing and the moisture resistance was zero. So Lawrence made the flax/linen cartridges impregnated with corn starch and varnished with shellac and then the cartridges became good and reliable...
The ringtail on the Pedersoli bullets is a continuation of the 1848 model bullets on which the paper was knotted, but which had no further use in 1859, and the 1859 models have no ringtail. That is the reason why those bullets Pedersoli are not good: Pedersoli has adopted the size that have the bullets only to go IF you are using brass tubes but doesn't matter when making whole cartridges...
The rest is a matter of choice of facility for making cartridges between brass tubes or Han tubes but it can never go perfectly: never the good dimension and never the right charge of black powder.
The choice is between making the wholes cartridges and the gluing and the sinking of tubes but that is another story...
The Pedersoli tubes (the longs tubes for Xmas tree) contain only 52 grains of N°2 swiss powder (FFFg)...

 

[gemmer]

My sporter's recoil with the 60 gr. Swiss 2F charge is a bit less than my .45-70 trapdoor rifle. Charlie recommends 38-42 gr of Swiss and is probably geared towards N-SSA carbine shooters. I can get 60 gr in an 1 3/8" tube if I use a drop tube. I put the tube in a .517 sizing die and put an .030 45 cal wad over the powder and tap it down with a dowel. I like the powder a bit compressed and there's plenty of room for the bullet base. I've never fooled around with lower charges since the 60 gr. works very well, as the target shows. My understanding is that the brass cases run around $7.00 a pop from Buffalo Arms.

 

[hawkeye2]

"OK, so Charlie's tubes only hold about 42 grains with a bullet. That sounds like a somewhat light load for a .54."

I had to cut the tubes to 1 3/8" shooting an unsized bullet. Sizing the same bullet allows it to go deeper into the barrel and would allow a much longer tube and Charlie sells several lengths. I'll be changing bullets and will be trying the as cast and sized so I don't know what length tube I'll settle on but I doubt I'll be using a charge much over 40 grains as I'm only interested in accuracy in my carbine. I would like to point out the 42 grain load is in the ball park of a Winchester .44-40 carbine, possibly a little more powerful, and a lot of whitetails fell in front of them. I have no doubt the rifle would be comfortable with a considerably larger load. See my post #35 too.

 

[Erwan]

Sure that you have a gain with a drop tube and pressing the powder, 60 grains is (I think) sufficient for a trapdoor, very good rifle...

I did the shoot on this target wen preparing a match in a club that the distance of shooting is only 50m, so the tang sight was for 100m and so it is too higt, 100m is the distance that all the time I shoot with the Sharps Sporting Pedersoli (prone position). After that and after setting the tang I did stay with 55 grains and it works pretty good for 50 et 100m...
Now I know for sure that the good charge is around 50/60 grains for the flax cartridges..

For 100m with the bullet of 500grains I need 55grains of powder FFFg (French or Swiss: it is the same)...
The group was good and I stay at this charge with no variation in the building of the cartridge: just almost like in 1859...
If Charlie recommend 38 or 42 grains this is certainly for 50m (~55 yards) but that can't be pretty good for 100m (109 yards)...

The recoil is not important, minder than with a 45-70 for the same ball weight, maybe because the 1859/63 Sharps don't have metal cartridges and a leaky falling block, the Sharps sporting Pedersoli is also a bit heavy and that can help...
With the Tryon Match, bullets also 500grains and 61 grains of the same powder the recoil is more important for 100m, I'm shooting like with a Gibbs: prone position MLAIC Withworth (704).

7$ each tube is a bit expensive but you save time on loading and the load is not that different. So I don't count the price of linen, alcohol or shellac and maybe I don't gain anything except the pleasure of doing and shoot my own cartridges.

Other thing: it is possible that I did not perfectly understand your answer, in this case I ask you to please accept my apologies...

Erwan.

 

[rickystl]

Again, thank you ALL for your comments. I've learned a bunch about these percussion breechloaders.
I think the best way for me to "start" would be with loose bullet and powder. Slugging the bore and ordering the right size bullet from Lodgewood, along with a bullet sizer and some SPG lube. I'll also get a few of those clear tubes. That way I can easily try different powder charges before settling on a combustible cartridge form. And that way I'll also get a feel for the gun.
Just one more question: I'm assuming from the reading that the breech of the Pedersoli will hold considerably more powder than 55-60 grains of FFG. If so, I would assume I will need to have some filler between the bullet and powder so as not to leave any serious air pockets. Am I right about this ?

Rick