IAB Sharps Gardone

[Erwan]

I did'nt test but I think that the don't Pedersoli takes not really more than 70/80grains in the breech. In a other way this rifle is designed to work without cartridges, look at this manual (ditto Pedersoli): https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/media/site/chiappa_sharps_manual.pdf
Just one more thing, don't calibrate the bullets, they come outside the mould at .451" you never have to calibrate if you do that they will be to small on the third belt because it is the only one that have the good size of .541": the first one is for centering, the second one is at the bore size and the third, the only one, is at the barrel size (bottom of grooves)...

 

[Erwan]

Correction: read .541 "and not .451" ...

 

[gemmer]

Again, thank you ALL for your comments. I've learned a bunch about these percussion breechloaders.
I think the best way for me to "start" would be with loose bullet and powder. Slugging the bore and ordering the right size bullet from Lodgewood, along with a bullet sizer and some SPG lube. I'll also get a few of those clear tubes. That way I can easily try different powder charges before settling on a combustible cartridge form. And that way I'll also get a feel for the gun.
Just one more question: I'm assuming from the reading that the breech of the Pedersoli will hold considerably more powder than 55-60 grains of FFG. If so, I would assume I will need to have some filler between the bullet and powder so as not to leave any serious air pockets. Am I right about this ?

Rick

The chamber will hold around 80 gr, the reason being that there is no room taken up by the outside diameter of a tube or paper cartridge. An airspace in a Sharps persussion chamber is not a problem other than that a reduced powder charge that is tilted away from the cap flash may cause misfires. Please note that Charlie's tubes are not combustible. They fragment and are blown out the barrel. If you are serious about getting your rifle to shoot well, you'll have to invest in casting components. It's worth the expense. There are plenty of people here and on the N-SSA site that can give you plenty of guidance. I'll be glad to help.

 

[dave951]

I'm assuming from the reading that the breech of the Pedersoli will hold considerably more powder than 55-60 grains of FFG. If so, I would assume I will need to have some filler between the bullet and powder so as not to leave any serious air pockets. Am I right about this ?

Rick

No filler needed in a Sharps. The "air pocket" thing isn't a factor in this design like in a traditional muzzleloader. In fact, filler can be detrimental to accuracy in a Sharps.

 

[Boston Bill]

I had a Pedersoli Sharps .54 Infantry rifle a while back and it was an awesome rifle , I got scared off by reading about the gas cutting, leaking etc and sold it thinking I'd just get the same thing in 45-70 and just get a set of hand dies and load cartridges with Black.

I never got around to that but I'd like to, they're beautiful rifles but the paper cartridges seemed like a lot of work unless you are 100% interested in the historical aspect, vs enjoying shooting it. There was also the caution of loose powder getting under the forearm and "flashing " , splitting the wood but I don't know if this was kinda like revolvers chain firing, and rarely occurs.

To bad you got scared off by the 'gas cutting'. 1979 I had an Italian copy and today I am shooting 2 Farmingdales, a 45 and a 50 and all 3 had NO gas cutting! I especially love the 45 1863 rifle I have!

 

[F.G. Ford]

I have been a fan and avid reader of this forum for several years, this is one of the better threads posted ( to my point of view )
The .54 percussion Sharps is a rifle all to it's own.
It is a transitional rifle, somewhat complicated, and rare. To some, a 45-70 is way less complicated, but it is NOT to the idea of this forum, and is unmentionable here.
Yes you have to make/buy paper or metal (?) cartridges, and bore sizes differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. I really don not recommend shooting loose powder in these guns. Way too many variables and harm to rifle and shooter is possible.
Accuracy wise, round ball muzzleloaders peak out at 100-125 yards, these mongrels can do much better and are very lethal on large game at much longer ranges.
They are not for the faint of heart.
My ( new found ) IAB .54 percussion Sharps sporting rifle ( 29" barrel ) is a keeper for me. The fit & finish is very good, the flat butt plate makes it easy to shoot off hand, prone or bench.
A side note, I have great results shooting a .562 round ball through my IAB rifle. Yes the ball is a little oversize for the bore, but it rolls well into the breech and sits tight with a paper cartridge behind it. I pre-lube the ball with alox lube prior to shooting, to prevent leading, as the ball has a tight fit to the bore.
With the tang sights it is easy to shoot one hole groups at seventy five yards.
You have to be a dedicated shooter ( of this type of firearm ) to enjoy it's potential.
The only down side to this rifle are the expensive and hard to find top hat percussion caps.
Question: Does anyone have a picture or two ( with dimensions of those metal cartridges or tubes ?
Have a great day!
Fred

 

[nkbj]

Going off of memory from long time ago, didn't the Chiapas Sharps have a faster twist for the rifling than the 48" in the Pedersoli reproductions?

 

[Erwan]

Question: Does anyone have a picture or two ( with dimensions of those metal cartridges or tubes ?
Have a great day!
Fred

The pictures are not nice but my phone is old and my PC had a small breakdown and I took a picture of my screen .
These are the two kinds of Pedersoli brass tubes: the "Classic" and the "Modern", they go in the same gun but the bullets are different and that's what explains the difference between the two kinds of tubes.
The tubes for IAB are normally shorter but it is easy to make them to the right size.

Erwan.

 

[coachjpg]

I am working up ammo for a Pedersoli replica Berdan Sharps, using their bullet mould and nitrated linen cartridges. I use a 0.5" mandrel which gives me an 0.545 finished outside diameter of the case, not counting the thickness of the string used to tie the linen to the bullet. I use nitrated hair curler paper for the base. With the base of the cartridge set back as far as possible, just short of being cut by the action, my 0.5" Internal Diameter case holds 80 grains. This cartridge fills the chamber, with an overall length of 2.34".

The Pedersoli manual says 80 grains is the max charge. The manual also says you can drop in a bullet and fill the chamber with powder, but that will give you more than 80 grains, so this doesn't make sense to me.

To achive reduced charges, as Charlie recommends, I plan to load the charge, then glue in another base paper on top of the charge, then fill the remaining space with granulated charcoal. That will give me a full cartridge, and place the base adjacent to the flash hole for maximum reliability.

Does anyone know what the original filler was? With a 62 grain charge in an 80 grain space, they must have used something for filler. Maybe ground coffee?

I'm still working out the details of how to best secure the bullet and case together, and how best to handle the lube. The case is too stiff for the string to pull it into the groove at the bottom of the Pedersoli Christmas Tree bullet. I'm using 0.55mm waxed linen thread. I could glue the case to the bullet and then paint on lube, or dip the base of the bullet in lube and tie the linen into the hot lube. I'm not a fan of attaching the bullet and then dipping the nose in lube, then scraping lube off the nose.

 

[Erwan]

Well, if you want look at this video maybe that can help you , this si for a Sharps Pedersoli Sporting .54" 59/63
My American is very bad but I guess that you can understand easily how I do for that kind of cartridges...
Now my cartridges have better accuracy but this is only because I use another BP thant the Swiss N°2...

The ∅ of yours mandrels must be in accord wit the thickness of your flax and the finished cartridge must have a ∅ max of .55".

For the linen cartridges I never use any link but only vegetal glue or water glass (Silicate of sodium). The filler is made of coffee ground.

My charge maxi is 60 grains but most of the time 50 grains (just for shooting at 55 and 110 yards and never more) of Swiss N°2 BP (with American powder I can't say but the different must be small)...

 

[Boston Bill]

I am working up ammo for a Pedersoli replica Berdan Sharps, using their bullet mould and nitrated linen cartridges. I use a 0.5" mandrel which gives me an 0.545 finished outside diameter of the case, not counting the thickness of the string used to tie the linen to the bullet. I use nitrated hair curler paper for the base. With the base of the cartridge set back as far as possible, just short of being cut by the action, my 0.5" Internal Diameter case holds 80 grains. This cartridge fills the chamber, with an overall length of 2.34".

The Pedersoli manual says 80 grains is the max charge. The manual also says you can drop in a bullet and fill the chamber with powder, but that will give you more than 80 grains, so this doesn't make sense to me.

To achive reduced charges, as Charlie recommends, I plan to load the charge, then glue in another base paper on top of the charge, then fill the remaining space with granulated charcoal. That will give me a full cartridge, and place the base adjacent to the flash hole for maximum reliability.

Does anyone know what the original filler was? With a 62 grain charge in an 80 grain space, they must have used something for filler. Maybe ground coffee?

I'm still working out the details of how to best secure the bullet and case together, and how best to handle the lube. The case is too stiff for the string to pull it into the groove at the bottom of the Pedersoli Christmas Tree bullet. I'm using 0.55mm waxed linen thread. I could glue the case to the bullet and then paint on lube, or dip the base of the bullet in lube and tie the linen into the hot lube. I'm not a fan of attaching the bullet and then dipping the nose in lube, then scraping lube off the nose.

I have used corn meal in the past for a filler. Also seemed easier to clean the carbine. But if you don't use the paper cartridges right away the corn meal does attract moisture. I had used some old cornmeal in some brass black powder cartridges and you could see the bullet leave the barrel and drop to the ground 15 feet in front of me. Was pretty funny.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Have a chance to pick one up. It’s .54 cal. and is at a descent price and new. Was sort of thinking about it?

My problem is, I know absolutely nothing about these? Never shot a breech loading black powder rifle? Also wondering about ammunition? Building a cartridge??

I’m strictly a round ball shooter with the exception of mini’s for my 1861 Springfield, Zouave’s.

Thought I’d maybe try something new? Again, I know absolutely nothing when it comes to shooting a Sharps rifle or any other breech loader? Don’t know if it’s something I’d like or not?

I’d appreciate your input if you shoot these or know anything about what I’ve mentioned above. Would also like to hear the pro’s and con’s about this rifle or its type.

I’m in no hurry to by it! What information you share with me will be a factor in my decision. In the mean time I’ll continue to research.

Lets call this Sharps 101?

Enquiring minds want to know?

God Bless and Merry Christmas my friend’s!

Respectfully, Cowboy

I had a cartridge one(Tristar IAB) ordered brand dang new. The breech block was not square, and shaving brass off the rim was the only way to close it. Also, the insane safety built into the firing pin mechanism was categorical bonkers and had not place on that gun. Bugger IAB... full stop.

 

[coachjpg]

Thanks Erwan.

I watched your video before I posted. That's where I learned about coffee for filler. Your video does not address the issue of lube, though. Do you use lube?

I am using waterglass too. I haven't worked out how to both lube the bullet and attach the bullet and the linen cartridge. The linen is too stiff for string to be effective. I'll figure something out, but I'd appreciate any wisdom that anyone might care to share. I'll probably end up gluing the bullet to the linen, and then painting lube onto a completed cartridge. Or maybe I can use the lube as the glue, embed the linen into the hot lube, and reinforce that with string.

I have both Swiss and Goex (American) powder. I wasn't sure which to buy, so I got some of each. I don't expect much difference, but I am new to all this.

Thanks again for your response.

...
For the linen cartridges I never use any link but only vegetal glue or water glass (Silicate of sodium). The filler is made of coffee ground.

My charge maxi is 60 grains but most of the time 50 grains (just for shooting at 55 and 110 yards and never more) of Swiss N°2 BP (with American powder I can't say but the different must be small)...

 

[coachjpg]

Thanks Bill.

I ordered granulated carbon for filler because I don't want ammo that attracts bugs or rodents or moisture. Sometimes my ammo can spend considerable time on a shelf. (I realize BP attracts moisture, so I'll need to keep it sealed up with silica gel for moisture management.)

I have used corn meal in the past for a filler. Also seemed easier to clean the carbine. But if you don't use the paper cartridges right away the corn meal does attract moisture. I had used some old cornmeal in some brass black powder cartridges and you could see the bullet leave the barrel and drop to the ground 15 feet in front of me. Was pretty funny.

 

[Erwan]

Hi,

I watched your video before I posted. That's where I learned about coffee for filler. Your video does not address the issue of lube, though. Do you use lube?

I never use thread to tie my linen cartridges and the bullets are glued directly to the linen cylinder. On the other hand, for paper cartridges I always use a link to attach the pearls of the collars: this type of thread is fine, solid and perfectly combustible, moreover it is very easy to make the two turns and the double knot of the ringtail by making the paper fit in the right place and thus packing the cartridge...
Concerning the lubricant I use the same grease as for my Minié bullets, a mixture of beeswax, tallow, lanolin and beef foot oil before use (as for the Minié), to not confuse this grease with another I put a food coloring: the red one you can see on the bullet which is in the video...
The paper bottom on which the falling block slides is made with very thin paper treated with pure potassium nitrate (saltpeter) in water and dried on a plastic plan : do not let the linen or the paper hang, which would make the saltpeter run out together with the water and thus lose the product on the ground and not evaporate, which keeps the product in the fibers of the fabric or the paper...

This is only for the Pedersoli Sharps as I have never made linen cartridges for IAB even though I don't think there is any significant difference between the two brands or even with Shiloh Sharps....

 

[dave951]

I had a cartridge one(Tristar IAB) ordered brand dang new. The breech block was not square, and shaving brass off the rim was the only way to close it. Also, the insane safety built into the firing pin mechanism was categorical bonkers and had not place on that gun. Bugger IAB... full stop.

Agreed, their cartridge guns are garbage, but the percussion ones are quite capable of very good accuracy.

 

[dave951]

FWIW, filler is NOT necessary or required. I just put the powder in the tube and glue a card wad over it to keep the powder in the back of the tube where it should be. No filler. Try it, you might be surprised

 

[coachjpg]

Thanks Dave.

It never occurred to me that a half-empty linen tube might have enough structural integrity to survive handling and loading. I thought the loading process included pushing the bullet into the front of the chamber with a little force. I thought the linen tube needed to be full in order for it to have the strength to transmit that loading force to the bullet. I suppose I could make it stiffer by sizing the linen with waterglass. Is that appropriate/necessary? Do you do anything special to make the empty portion of the linen tube stiff enough?

FWIW, filler is NOT necessary or required. I just put the powder in the tube and glue a card wad over it to keep the powder in the back of the tube where it should be. No filler. Try it, you might be surprised

 

[TFoley]

Here's the latest video from capandball, shooting his new-to-him 1863 Sharps carbine/carbeen - 40 minutes of fun and information...

 

[coachjpg]

This is the Pedersoli "Modern" mould with nitrated linen cartridge using nitrated hair curler paper and Gatofeo lube. The lube darkens the linen above the line where the powder charge ends. Is the cost per round below in line with what others experience? These are recent (pandemic and ammo shortage) prices delivered.

Material Cost	Cost/Round
$5/lb powder	$0.04	cost for powder
$1.36/lb lead	$0.10	cost per bullet
$/8 12-yd roll linen	$0.04	cost for linen
$3/1000 paper	$0.00	cost for paper
$27 for 2.5 lbs lube	$0.07	cost for lube
$5/lb potassium nitrate	$0.01	cost for potassium nitrate
$100/1000 caps	$0.10	percussion cap
$3/gallon waterglass	$0.00	cost for waterglass
TOTAL:	$0.36	cost per round