Idaho Lewis Modified NASA lube

[chorizo]

SPG is bullet lube.

yes, I realize that, we are talking lube for conicals not PBR to stay on point. Again, SPG was talked about by Idaho Lewis and he preferred his formulation.

I tried SPG in my early use of two 58 cal Navy arms gun. Either I wasn't using the right bullet/lube/velocity combination or my expectations were too much for the relatively slow twist and very shallow rifling, but I could never get those 58s to be 125 yard guns. Lucky to get them out to 100 yards, but accuracy was inconsistent with the velocities I wanted. My best was sub 1150fps with a 460 gr minie with an OP wad that gave me great accuracy at 50 yards but velocity was such that the drop at 125 yards was well over 6 " and I had to hold 3.5" high at 50 for a 100 zero. Just not what I wanted so I headed down this rabbit hole in search of the right combination. I am glad I did as I have learned much.

My goals:

A gun that can hold 3" group with ghost ring hunting sights at 100 yards, drops no more than 3" at 125 yards with that 100 yard zero and retains no less than 1200 ftlbs of energy at 125 yards and has through and through capability and a modest expansion, all out of a carbine of no more than 24" in length and preferably 21-22 inches in length that is around 7lbs total weight.

Yes, I know..a kabuki dance to be sure, but I know what I want and I believe it is achievable with the right combination of twist, bullet, lube and powder.

 

[Shiloh]

Since we are talking about a bullet not PRB I think my post is on point as much as post #2

 

[chorizo]

Since we are talking about a bullet not PRB I think my post is on point as much as post #2

You are right, neither are really on point.

 

[stikshooter]

It was to me too....I read about it on Idaho Lewis' forum and his modification to it to make it less viscous. Lewis said it made a huge difference in accuracy. Two 2.6 ozs of Stihl synthetic 2 cycle motor oil to one lb of NASA lube.

I do not know the formulation, but I know where you can get it. ~ Lubes ~

I was lucky enough to get a 1 lb brick of the Idaho Lewis formulation from a fellow member along with some bullets that he cast and others he had to sell.

I also formulated some myself. one part mutton tallow/five parts beeswax/one part solid ALOX lube/2 tablespoons olive oil (which I will omit in new formulation)/one 2.6 oz bottle of Homelite 2 cycle. If that works close to what the modified NASA lube gives me, I will make my own (but substitute the Stihl for Homelite)

I use the Idaho Lewis secret lube as written , and just found another great use ! I wipe down my barrel before
reinserting into the stock ,especially pinned long rifles ,just examined one from last year and found not only no rust but no water seepage into stock after hunting in rain . No water/no rust and a pleasant waxy feel on exterior not to mention a super clean bore condition /Ed

 

[stikshooter]

SPG is bullet lube.

And one I use for patch lube and everything else I can think of propelled by Black powder
(grooved conicals) too including my barrel/rifle protectant as I just posted /Ed

 

[Idaho Ron]

SPG has been brought up and Idaho Lewis felt that the modified NASA was a better lube in his experience. I sure Idaho Ron could add some to that conversation.

Before I started paper patching about 2006? I used a SPG clone type lube. It was made by a guy named Lars Lube, I think. It was very thick but it didn't turn hard.
I pan lubed them and cut them out of the lube with a 50 cal M2 case.
At the time the bullets I was shooting just didn't do super. The fouling wasn't cooperating. I couldn't shoot without cleaning every shot. Even at that after 10 or so shots with cleaning between each shot my accuracy just wasn't where I wanted it to be. And bullets were hard to get down.
Maybe it was the lube? Maybe it was the lube with Pyrodex P? There were a lot of variables. At the same time I was not in love with my Lyman plains bullets. I was just not getting results that were in any way good.

In November of 2007. I made up my mind. When shooting greased bullets you are dealing with powder fouling, grease fouling, and lead fouling if the lube isn't working properly. My plan to use paper patched bullets was to remove as many any variables as I could.
Testing of the Lee 500S&W bullet paper patched started in 2008. I shot them almost every week refining the paper, powder, and finally bullet hardness. At the time I didn't have any idea how well suited for game that bullet was.
October 2009 it all came together and I took the first buck with the paper patched Lee 500S&W bullets.

I'm not saying that a grease groove bullet can't keep up with a paper patched bullet. I'm saying that when I was in the middle of figuring out the lube, I stumbled upon paper patching. I never looked back.
Lewis did a lot of testing with grease groove bullets. I'm sure that his lube modification would be a good place to start. Especially if you use the same powder he uses. Changing powder can and will change how lube behaves.

 

[chorizo]

Sound advice. I will not be using the same combinations unfortunately I have settled upon Triple 7 3F as it gives me the velocity I desire so I got to plow my own ground here. Hopefully it, in combination with the lube and bullets will give me the accuracy I look for. One concept that resonates with me is the thickness of the lube. Thick, hard lube sheds from the grooves unevenly negatively affecting accuracy. Soft lube sheds quickly and evenly. Lewis liked it "the thinner the better...just thick enough to be sticky and stay in the grooves." I will go with a little thicker than that but much thinner than the lube I have been using.

But only shooting will tell.

 

[stikshooter]

Sound advice. I will not be using the same combinations unfortunately I have settled upon Triple 7 3F as it gives me the velocity I desire so I got to plow my own ground here. Hopefully it, in combination with the lube and bullets will give me the accuracy I look for. One concept that resonates with me is the thickness of the lube. Thick, hard lube sheds from the grooves unevenly negatively affecting accuracy. Soft lube sheds quickly and evenly. Lewis liked it "the thinner the better...just thick enough to be sticky and stay in the grooves." I will go with a little thicker than that but much thinner than the lube I have been using.

But only shooting will tell.

Want a little thicker as stated by Lewis cut back or skip the Planters peanut oil and there you go for thicker ,or cut recipe in half try with and without . I use as suggested by Lewis and it works great! I do not recommend use with jelly as it does not make it any tastier/Ed

 

[SDSmlf]

Much like @Idaho Ron, and with his assistance, I have mainly gone to using paper patched bullets, primarily in 45 caliber, when I hunt with conicals. If I know the range, I am good out to 300 yards plus. Shooting at a MR63 target (18” bull) the guns I have will keep 5 consecutive shots starting from a clean cold barrel in the approximately 8-3/4” 9 ring provided light is there and I can see the target. Not a for sure everyday thing. I limit my hunting to 150 yards or so. Rangefinder only has to be off only a few yards for a miss much beyond that range.

Going further off topic, I used shorter (26”) 58 caliber Hoyt roundball bored barrels in both flint and percussion with a point blank range out to 100 yards plus (+/- 3” out to 100 yards with a 85 yard zero) with good success for what and where I hunt.

Back to bullet lube. I have used the NRA lube of mutton tallow, paraffin and bees wax published in 1943 since the 1970s. With minor tweaks over the years it has worked. In testing a few years back (don’t remember date, but most likely came after our friend in Idaho suggested it) adding Stihl synthetic 2 cycle oil to the mix just seemed to work as good or better than any other lube formulation (NRA lube sans Stihl synthetic, SPG and Borebutter, last place in all tests). Did NOT try the Bullshop stuff. I did try with a number of 54 caliber conicals over 70 to 100 grains of 3F Swiss comparing it to other lubes. Not a conclusive test, just what I tried. I was using two 54 caliber barrels with 1-28 and 1-48 twists. Shot Maxi Ball, Maxi Hunter, Lee Modern Mini, Lee REAL and Hornady Great Plains Bullet with factory lube and relube. Don’t have printout of data I can find, but as soon as a load combo went south, testing with it was done. Adding the Stihl 2 synthetic seemed to bump every combination to the top of the accuracy list, at least no worse than any of the others.

Again, for whatever the reason, the Stihl Synthetic over 3F Swiss seemed to be the sweet spot for what I was trying.

Looking forward to the results with your guns. You have me thinking about a 58 short barreled slug gun again, almost as bad as when I first read Val’s accounts. The good thing is, I have a pile of barrels I could get opened up to a 58 caliber fast bore. Here is a group photograph I took a while back for a reason that escapes me at the moment, of some of the orphan barrels I have with no stocks to call home.

Again, very interested in your actual shooting results.

 

[chorizo]

Thank you for a very informative post. Impressive barrel collection! Your information helps greatly. As I am holding my range to 125 yards because of the type of sights I am using, I am still leaning to the lube vice paper route. Acceptable accuracy out to 125 yards (3" at 100) is my goal and hopefully I can achieve that with lube.

Your post has great info I am going to try to incorporate.

I have settled on a mutton tallow, beeswax, lanolin equal parts with stihl mix. All ingredients I now have. I have read the lanolin adds stickiness and softening of residue to the mix. It will get a heads up comparison with the modified NASA. Powder starting point will be 110 grains of triple 7 3f for the 54s and 100 for the 58 and add or subtract as I try the various bullet lube combo to find the most accurate load.

I also have a pair of ardesa 21" barrel 50 cal with 1:32 twist that I need to work up loads for. I have some REALs 320gr, T/C 340gr hunters and Hornady GP 385gr to try in them.

I tend to buy things in "bulk" as I have found over the years that when you find something that works, it is hard to duplicate or find that again unless you make it yourself. That has been my reasoning for making my own lube as I have seen some of the proprietary "magic" lubes disappear with no formulas to be had. As I don't cast, I have been buy lots of 200 for bullets. I am sure there will be a "fire sale" of some of the non-hackers afterwards, but I will have sufficient of what does work.

I will keep all posted on results. After the velocity tests, I am feeling more confident that I can find the right combination of accuracy, internal ballistics, external ballistics and terminal ballistics that will achieve my objectives. The three ballistics I have achieved, now the hard part begins.

I am anxious to get out to test but the weather has been uncooperative.
Yesterday morning

 

[Bad Karma]

Much like @Idaho Ron, and with his assistance, I have mainly gone to using paper patched bullets, primarily in 45 caliber, when I hunt with conicals. If I know the range, I am good out to 300 yards plus. Shooting at a MR63 target (18” bull) the guns I have will keep 5 consecutive shots starting from a clean cold barrel in the approximately 8-3/4” 9 ring provided light is there and I can see the target. Not a for sure everyday thing. I limit my hunting to 150 yards or so. Rangefinder only has to be off only a few yards for a miss much beyond that range.

Going further off topic, I used shorter (26”) 58 caliber Hoyt roundball bored barrels in both flint and percussion with a point blank range out to 100 yards plus (+/- 3” out to 100 yards with a 85 yard zero) with good success for what and where I hunt.

Back to bullet lube. I have used the NRA lube of mutton tallow, paraffin and bees wax published in 1943 since the 1970s. With minor tweaks over the years it has worked. In testing a few years back (don’t remember date, but most likely came after our friend in Idaho suggested it) adding Stihl synthetic 2 cycle oil to the mix just seemed to work as good or better than any other lube formulation (NRA lube sans Stihl synthetic, SPG and Borebutter, last place in all tests). Did NOT try the Bullshop stuff. I did try with a number of 54 caliber conicals over 70 to 100 grains of 3F Swiss comparing it to other lubes. Not a conclusive test, just what I tried. I was using two 54 caliber barrels with 1-28 and 1-48 twists. Shot Maxi Ball, Maxi Hunter, Lee Modern Mini, Lee REAL and Hornady Great Plains Bullet with factory lube and relube. Don’t have printout of data I can find, but as soon as a load combo went south, testing with it was done. Adding the Stihl 2 synthetic seemed to bump every combination to the top of the accuracy list, at least no worse than any of the others.

Again, for whatever the reason, the Stihl Synthetic over 3F Swiss seemed to be the sweet spot for what I was trying.

Looking forward to the results with your guns. You have me thinking about a 58 short barreled slug gun again, almost as bad as when I first read Val’s accounts. The good thing is, I have a pile of barrels I could get opened up to a 58 caliber fast bore. Here is a group photograph I took a while back for a reason that escapes me at the moment, of some of the orphan barrels I have with no stocks to call home.
View attachment 202605
Again, very interested in your actual shooting results.

Thank you! I’m not alone!!! I recently installed a larger safe and moved a bunch of stuff out into another one. I thought of laying the barrels out and snapping a picture for insurance but my dearly beloved was already looking at me sideways and I didn’t want to give her a reason to cash in my life insurance policy…

One of the best things about the TC platform is the interchangeable nature of barrels locks and stocks across a few models. I really like the WMC stock with various barrel lengths from 21” to 34” light barrels and then the Renegade with the heavier barrels in the same lengths. Here’s your Carbine barrel in a Renegade stock Chorizo.

And the first group with .530 ball over 80 grains of 2f Swiss.

 

[Billy Boy]

I come across here on the forums as a pretty nice guy, but actually I'm a miserable SOB.

I’m so bad there were times I didn’t help mom with the dishes…

 

[chorizo]

Fantastic! I am glad the barrel is working out for you. Very nice group! I too like the WMC stocks for carbines.
I see you still have that broken front sight on there!

I thought I was bad...you two have me beat hands down! I only have two barrels without stocks

 

[Bad Karma]

Fantastic! I am glad the barrel is working out for you. Very nice group! I too like the WMC stocks for carbines.

I see you still have that broken front sight on there!

Yeah, I have another one somewhere. Green, but the red shows up on paper real nice!

 

[SDSmlf]

I have settled on a mutton tallow, beeswax, lanolin equal parts with stihl mix. All ingredients I now have. I have read the lanolin adds stickiness and softening of residue to the mix.

Are you using the paste or liquid lanolin?

 

[chorizo]

Are you using the paste or liquid lanolin?

anhydrous paste. 100% lanolin and is creamy and sticky.

 

[SDSmlf]

anhydrous paste. 100% lanolin and is creamy and sticky.

I have used the paste, though I have heard a few suggest the liquid lanolin, but haven’t tried it in bullet lube. The paste is also an ingredient in a patch lube that I’ve made.

You’ve got me convinced to hold off on making my next batch of bullet lube until I hear your test results. I’m still going to make the NRA lube, but mix up a couple some small containers of some ‘experimental’ formulas, and it just easier to setup and do it all at once. Also have to schedule around the bride, or it will be an outdoor session.

 

[chorizo]

Made my version of lube the last two days. The final mix was 3ozs of beeswax, 3 fluid ozs (1 bottle plus 0.4 ozs) of stihl 2cyle oil, 4ozs lanolin, and 2ozs mutton tallow. Melt point 115/120 degrees, solid at room temp but soft enough to pinch some off the block, and at 45 degrees the block cuts like solid cheddar cheese. Sticky enough that it works into and stays in the grooves. It is a tad thicker (thicker is what I wanted) than the modified NASA lube, yet retains the stickiness and slickness. My target operating Temps are 75 degrees down to 25 degrees. Now to go shoot things.

 

[Bad Karma]

Made my version of lube the last two days. The final mix was 3ozs of beeswax, 3 fluid ozs (1 bottle plus 0.4 ozs) of stihl 2cyle oil, 4ozs lanolin, and 2ozs mutton tallow. Melt point 115/120 degrees, solid at room temp but soft enough to pinch some off the block, and at 45 degrees the block cuts like solid cheddar cheese. Sticky enough that it works into and stays in the grooves. It is a tad thicker (thicker is what I wanted) than the modified NASA lube, yet retains the stickiness and slickness. My target operating Temps are 75 degrees down to 25 degrees. Now to go shoot things.
View attachment 203117

Sorta looks like a kitchen knife, countertop and cutting board… major props my man! I’m under strict standing orders from the CIC to keep my gun stuff out of her kitchen… Semper Fi Marine.

 

[chorizo]

Sorta looks like a kitchen knife, countertop and cutting board… major props my man! I’m under strict standing orders from the CIC to keep my gun stuff out of her kitchen… Semper Fi Marine.

In my defense, I have been left unsupervised (the only wife I have are ex) so I do what I want!
I used to be relegated to the cold shop, but now I have it where ever I want!

S/F