if I use 3fff how should I reduce

[CoyoteJoe]

When you reach the point where more powder simply means that some doesn't burn at all, and some other amount burns outside the barrel, the powder is only contributing to velocity in the way I described: its mass adds to barrel time, increases pressure, helps burn a little more powder more efficiently in the barrel, and therefore gives a small percentage increase in velocity of a lighter charge of the same powder.

Now you're just really not thinking Paul. Increased barrel time is synonymous with reduced velocity. Increasing the mass ahead of the powder charge may indeed increase the pressure but it reduces the velocity as demonstrated by the fact that conicals do not reach the velocity of balls even with greater pressure.
If your theory had any validity one could load 60 grains of powder and 60 grains of corn meal or cream of wheat to get the same velocity as 120 grains of powder. since that clearly is not the case then clearly the additional 60 grains of powder must be burning inside the barrel else it could not increase the velocity of the ball.
Yes, it is true as you say that air resistance increase with velocity but faster is still faster. The slower moving ball will never catch up and the faster ball will carry more energy at any distance from the muzzle out to the maximum range of the slower ball. Granted, the advantage does dwindle at long range but it does still exist.
But the point here is not about the crummy ballistic coefficient of round balls, on that we can all agree. My argument is with your half-baked theory as to how much powder can burn inside a gun barrel and that is a heck of a lot more than most people would expect or ever consider trying, and at least twice as much as calculated by your pet formula.
I suspect that gentleman took a formula for huge naval guns which probably was not "exact" even for that application but becomes totally absurd when scaled down and applied to sporting firearms. That his formula gives a "reasonable load" I don't doubt but to claim that no more powder can be burned is to ignore the indisputable facts.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have not seen tables on down range velocities for bullets or balls, but there are some very interesting tables in the Lyman shotshell reloading manual about down range pellet energy, velocity retained, and time to target for heavy and light load. Since a round shot pellet acts ballistically like a round ball, the data is instructive.

At 40 yards, the difference in time to target for the heaviest ( fastest) load they show, compare to the lightest( slowest) load is measured in hundredths of a second, and in inches.

That slow load may not " catch up", but its going to get there fast enough to not matter much to a deer.

 

[rkite]

110 grains 2F x 80 percent = 88 grains 3F

My Lyman GPR is .54 cal and has a 32 inch barrel with 1:60 twist so it is similar to your rifle as far as specs go. The Lyman manual says the max load for round balls is 100 grains of GOEX 2F and 80 grains of GOEX 3F. Thus 100 grains of 2F is approximately equivalent to 80 3F in a .54 cal shooting round balls with a 32" barrel. I shoot 80 grains of GOEX 3F and it is a stout load. No doubt these guns can handle even larger loads but 80 grains of FFF is plenty for hunting and kicks a bit hard for target shooting. GOEX produces a bit more pressure and velocity than other black powders according to my Lyman Black Powder handbook.

Maxi balls require smaller loads for the same pressures compared to round balls and are listed in the manual but the rifling in these guns is designed for round balls.

Your guns specs read -->
Twist - 1:65 Barrel Length - ~32-5/16" [url] http://arms2armor.com/store/prpedersoli-ss4.html[/url]

--Rodney

 

[canuck4570]

went shooting yesterday for the first time with my gun....bad bad look at topic on percusion gun... but with the help of you guys I am shure to get it right .....
from the few shot I managed to get off I think you are wright about 80 gr. of powder is jus about wright....

 

[FV Rago]

When I cut my GPR barrel down, I was worried about too much 2F blowing out of my muzzle. At that time I switched to 3F and from talking to a few salts, cut my powder from 90grns to 70grns.

This worked perfectly. I'm still throwing a little powder out the end but performance is just too good to change.

I have since switched to 3F on my 45 Kentucky. It has a 44" barrel. I started with 50 grns, but was just not getting that pop that I so much like when shooting.

I tried 60grns, a bit better but when I put 70 grns of 3F in her, wow! I got that crack that I was looking for, my accuracy is right one.

But then the gun is so long, I just rest the end of the muzzle on the target.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That crack just means the ball is traveling over the Speed of Sound when it leaves the muzzle. The Speed of sound varies depending on altitude, but approx. 1130 fps is considered the SOS. Your 70 grain charge of FFFg in that .45 should be pushing the ball out at about 2000fps!

 

[FV Rago]

So, is that a good thing?

Sure does shoot nice.

 

[tg]

I have found around 80 gr. works well in a .54 rifle, but I do not shoot at game past 75 yds.

 

[tg]

"Why is it when Mongrain Michel asks a simple question, he gets a lecture?"

Just a pattern with some folks, in time one can seperate the wheat from the chaff around here..

 

[paulvallandigham]

Whether that velocity is a good thing depends entirely on the rifle you are shooting. My brother's 45 has a 38 inch barrel. If you are shooting a 28 inch barrel, all you are doing with that large a powder charge is building up pressure, and beating the stock. In time you may get a crack in the stock behind the tang, going down the wrist. Or the screws holding the tang down may work loose, because of the extra pounding they are taking. If your builder put a recoil lug in the barrel, you may find cracks forming from that point back, as there is not much wood in most stocks, to support all the extra recoil forces generated by huge powder charges.

If it shoots well, and you don't see any damage being done to the rifle, shoot it!

 

[FV Rago]

Paul,

Thanks, I will keep a keen eye open for cracks. Really never thought about that.

The barrel is 44" long and weighs a ton. The rifle weighs in at 12 lbs. But is is balanced both when shooting or when carried.

Traded a brand new in the box GPR flinter for it. I promised the gent that I would not make a wall hanger out of it, but rather use it. It was the only way he would trade. The rifle is suppose to have been made by some old lock maker who made locks prior to L&R. I forget the gents name.

It is my main rifle now.

Thanks,

Frank

 

[paulvallandigham]

Take the tang screw out, and the barrel pins, and remove any screws that pass through the Breechplug, so you can remove the barrel. It obviously has been shot, so a careful examination of the barrel and tang mortises should show tight spots and loose spots. If not, put some inletting black, or lipstick, on the underside of the breechplug and tang, and mount the barrel back in the stock. Fire a couple of rounds, and then take the barrel back out. That will mark the contact areas. If you don't have a good even fit between metal and wood, you may want to bed the barrel and tang with an epoxy to fill in the low spots, and strengthen the entire area. Then that 12 pound barrel will not damage the wood of the stock moving during recoil.

Sounds like a nice, if heavy gun. Don't hesitate a moment to use a tree or stick to support the weight of that barrel when you are hunting. For off-hand shooting matches, you just have to handle that weight as best you can.

 

[FV Rago]

Paul,

Thanks again. I may not be pulling that barrel for awhile as it has 6 pins holding it in.

I am however going to work down to a load in the 50 / 55 grains of 3F.

It seems that most 45 cal. shooters are in that range.

Did pull the lock, the name on the back of the lock is Ross Hamm.

This is one of those rifles you keep forever and pass down to your kids.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Russ Hamm made locks for years, before he retired in the early 1970s. He sold his equipment to someone, but I am told that the dies and molds were all worn out, the new owner didn't have the capital to buy new ones. So, he made up locks from parts, and then went out of business. These are fine locks. Russ also had a going business of fitting " shoes " to worn out frizzens, whereby he would screw and solder on a strip of modern steel with much magnesium in it, so that the frizzens would spark again thousands of times before needed a new " shoe ". The shoe gave off sparks like a Fourth of July sparkler.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yes, I got the material from Russ Hamm to half-sole the frizzen on an Italian replica 1803 Harpers Ferry. It had to be riveted to the frizzen, solder would not adhere and that was the only way I could get that lock to spark well. But didn't I hear that stuff contained depleted Uranium?

 

[paulvallandigham]

JOe, I don't think the material contained depleted Urnaium, either. At least that is not what I was told. I was told the steel had a high magnesium component. Magnesium has nothing to do with depleted uranium. Its currently used in the " Metal Match " sold at camping stores for starting fires. Its also the major component of " magnets", and is often known colloquially as " Lodestone ".

 

[Bob J]

I've settled on 80 grains 3f as my hunting load for the .54 (90 grains 2f will shoot almost same POI if I happen to run out of 3f). I believe Paul and others here are correct; its a very adequate load for whitetail.

 

[Bob J]

Paul,

Did pull the lock, the name on the back of the lock is Ross Hamm.

This is one of those rifles you keep forever and pass down to your kids.

FVR - Russ Hamm moved to Ft. Pierce, FL around 1969 - 1970. He and my Dad became friends. I was about 5 years old at the time. Remember Russ and his wife coming over for a fish fry. Dad took me over to his house quite a bit. His garage was full of equipment and he was still tinkering with flintlocks (He was an avid fisherman, too). My Dad's flintlock was a .50 built by Russ; its an "Allentown" style, somewhat of a Roman-nose fullstock. Its still in the family today.

That flintlock had been fitted with one of Russ Hamm's "always sparks' frizzen facings (sole plate?). I was later told that the material was radioactive - in fact, Muzzle Blasts had an article about the danger they posed. Won't get into arguments about it but will just say that Dad had the material removed and a new frizzen plate installed by a muzzleloader gunsmith in the 1990s.

I took Dad's Hamm rifle out to the range last year and was surprised how fast the lock was. Enjoy your Hamm rifle! And post photos :thumbsup:

 

[FV Rago]

I got this rifle from a gent in Florida.