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Ignition Problem ???

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steeltrap

32 Cal.
Joined
May 20, 2007
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I have been having Ignition problems of late from My GM drop in barrel ??? I was wondering if Ya'll might have an andwser. Here is what I'M doing.....
I run dry patches down the bore to dry the oil from the bore. And snap 3 or 4 caps before I load. The first shot seems to allways go well. But from time to time My follow up loads may just pop the cap. It usually goes off the second or third cap ??????
Here is what I am doing........ After the first shot. And between every shot, I am running a slightly damp patch down to clean the bore for the next shot. I use to go all the way down on the first patch. But then thinking I may be pushing burt powder gunk down . I started stoping the first patch 4 or 5 inches from the breech. Trying to get the worst of the crud soaked up. I run the patch down 3 times then turn it over. " Yep I'M a cheepy skate" Then run it down 3 more. Then I take a second clean damp patch. And go clear to the breech a coulpla of strokes on each side. Then pour powder and load. I may go 8 or 10 shots without a problem. Then I will only snap the cap. As I said it useually go off sometimes with a slight hangfire on the second or third cap.?????????? I don't believe My damp patch is too damp ? But I can't figgure just what the problem is. But it seems that with time the problem is getting worse. I use to shoot 50 shots and then it would happen. And now every 8 or 10 and it does it ? WHAT IN THE WORLD AM I DOING WRONG ???????????? :hmm: THANKS ADC Trapper
 
when I start out for the day, first thing is to wipe out with an ALCOHOL soaked patch, up and down, and then down fast so I can hear air coming out my nipple and feel the back pressure from the air coming in on the up stroke.....=clear flash channel. I follow this with a pass from a lubed patch to oil the bore.
IF I wipe during the event or session, I will run a lubed shooting patch up and down, both sides and get a read on the crud. sometimes, I will run the alcohol again if its bad. Temperature and humitity play a part in this!
Also, depending on how you clean, there is a possibility of powder residues being left in the cnannel of which the salts go to work and grow fuzz and cause a blockage that also catches new residues.

Not the gospel, but things that have worked for me!
 
First thing I'd do is change to a new nipple, whether a simple replacement of what you're already using or a hotshot of some sort. If you were getting 50 shots before and the problem is getting worse and worse, I can't see that your current swabbing methods would have anything to do with the situation. Heck. I don't even bother swabbing in any of my guns till I notice the seating effort mounting.

Any time I have been getting misfires and hangfires, it's been due to nipple deterioration or crud buildup in the flame channel. I'm wondering if over time a permanent layer of crud has been building in your flame channel. If I was going to change anything in your procedure it would be a more aggressive effort in your after-shoot cleaning of the flame channel.
 
you may be useing a too-damp patch. have you ever tryed just a dry patch? I use a looser fitting patch than the one I use to patch ball with. also you need a nipple pick to clear the flash hole ever so often.
if in doubt you could pull the drum screw and clean inside with a pipe cleaner. that brings out some crud.
 
Here's what I suggest and it will only cost you a few extra caps. Do everything exactly as you have been doing it except this time before you pour the charge snap a cap and point it at grass, etc you see movement- indicating a clear pathway from nipple to barrel. Then load and shoot. If the hangfires disappear then the cap is blowing crud out of the nipple, pathway area. In short, you are still pushing crud into this area.
here are a couple of options, one is to just snap a cap everytime but that gets sort of expensive. You could also blown down the barrel- keep you head out of the way- cup your hand over the muzzle and blow into your hand. Then pour the charge, then a wad- which pushes the crud over the powder, with the crud/residue gone you can now seat a patched ball pretty easily.
Others probably have other systems.
 
Trapper: You have not noted relative humidity, and how it affects this performance from one shoot to the next. You have to modify your cleaning and loading technique based on changes in the humidity. One size does NOT fit all.

Along those same lines, it may be that you are leaving cleaning fluid(water, spit, etc.) from those " damp " patches down in the powder chamber of that gun. Remember, that chamber is about .30 caliber, m/l, and it can be fouled much quicker than your bore.

Try running a dry cleaning patch- not the same as the patches you use to wrap the ball, but a much thinner, cotton or flannel patching material-- down the barrel AFTER the last damp barrel goes down. If humidity is high, along with the temperature, as often occurs in the Summer, flush the barrel with alcohol to get the condensation out of the flash channel, and powder channel, periodically during a shooting session. Let the dampness of the pulled " Dry patch" tell you when you need to use alcohol again.

These kind of hang fires, and misfires, rarely happen in guns that have flash channels that go directly to the bore. They seem to happen routinely with flash channels that go to a smaller powder chamber. Make allowances for the design of the gun, therefore.

YOu could have someone pull that breechplug and drill out that powder chamber, getting rid of the problem that way. But, doing so will void the factory warranty( who really cares??) and, I suppose, affect resale value, Maybe. I would think it would make the resale value go up to anyone familiar with these problems in factory guns.

I do believe you should be flushing the nipple, flash channel, powder chamber, and bore with alcohol before the gun is taken from storage to the range or field, every time. And, remove that " clean out " screw, and check that flash channel for rust, or rough spots. Any roughness will hold onto crud, and create blockages. When the channel is narrow( typically about 1/8" in diameter), it doesn't take much to prevent the fire from reaching the powder.

I believe the number one reason for hangfires is that the powder is contaminated by cleaning fluids that are not removed from the barrel before the next charge is poured down the barrel.

At least that is what was my problem when I was starting out, shooting a percussion rifle. And, that was the common source of the problem for the other shooters on our club range. When we convinced the shooter to use a dry cleaning patch AFTER he had run a damp patch down the barrel, to dry the barrel thoroughly, only then did the hangfires stop.

The advice eventually had a snowball effect, as shooters reluctant to change their loading procedures began noticing that other shooters who had chronic problems with hangfires, didn't any more, and were shooting better scores now. Their fragile egos would not allow them to admit they were wrong, but the Range Officers would notice them changing their loading procedure from one month to the next, and just smile. :grin: :hmm: :thumbsup:
 
-----how about getting a piece of air hose for fish tanks and slip it over the nipple and blow through it to clear the nipple-----
 
Check carefully where the nipple threads in. For a while GM was shipping barrels with heli-coil inserts. I got one where the insert was nearly blocking the flash channel and I was blaming my problems on the caps.

No misfires since I removed the portion of the insert blocking the flash channel.
 
ADC Trapper
I didn't see what powder you are using.
If it is a synthetic powder you can expect an occasional hang fire or mis-fire.

Personally, I think your going way overboard on wiping the bore. You should only wipe the bore when the last load seemed fairly hard to ram down the bore.

Also, repeatedly running the wet patch up and down the bore will dislodge a lot of fouling allowing it to fall into the powder chamber. This fouling can block the flame channel during the next loading.

If the first wet patch is too wet the water can accumulate in the powder chamber which will contaminate the next powder load and can also block the flame channel.

As I mentioned, you should only wipe the bore when it needs it and the wet patch should be damp, not wet.
Run this damp patch down the bore to the bottom, count to three and then pull it back out. Put one dry patch on the jag and wipe the dampness out of the bore. Then reload.

By the way, I wouldn't run a dry patch down the bore except to dry it. Dry patches in a fouled bore are a sure way to get your cleaning jag/patch stuck.

To those who get a dry patch stuck in the barrel, pour some water down into the bore on top of the dry patch. Give it 20 seconds to soak into the material.
This will usually free up the stuck patch.
 
I have listened to some more experienced percussion BP shooters at the rifle range that occsionally had misfires and 90% said it was due to fouled nipples.

That is why when I finally found a 5/16"-18 steel nipple at Dixie Gun Works that correctly fit my Armisport P53 .577 cal. Enfield rifle musket, I purchased a dozen of them. I have not fired more than 20 shots using one nipple since I purchased the Armisport Enfield rifle musket and I am yet to have a misfire. If and when I have a misfire, I will first replace the nipple and attempt to continue firing before I clean the rifle. I will toss the fouled nipple in a clear plastic beverage bottle half-full of BP cleaning solution.

I never have used anything but Ballistol to dampen my cotton bore swab and after I use it, I dry swab the bore with a clean swab to remove any excess Ballistol. Then I use a 10-32 steel thread brass breech scraper attachment for my one piece field rod so I remove any fouling in the breech that may block the fire channel. I also purchased a convenient bore and fire channel flushing kit from Track-Of-The-Wolf. I pump it a few times with my favorite cleaning solution and it works very well.
 
Thanks to all that replyed so far with helpfull suggestions........ OK to andwser some of Your inquireys. I ONLY shoot real Black powder. I have never bought a substitute and have no intention to do so as long as I can get the real stuff. I shoot both ffg and fffg Goex. And # 11 CCI magnum caps. Paul I live in the deep south now and high humidity is an everyday fact of life ? So I'M not sure how to adjust anything I do ? Paul How should I adjust ? And a question to You about the Pat. breech on a GM vs a TC ? When I started shooting black powder I had a TC and do not recall ever having this problem with it ? I have 3 GM drop ins for My renegade. A 32 cal, a 50 cal. and a 54 cal. And have had the same misfire problem with all of them ? Don't get Me wrong they all target shoot Excellent .......when they go boom...... I might add that target shooting is all I do anymore and strive for X's I don't always do it of course, but I'm maticullas in My effort to. I try to do everything exactly the same every shot as best I can. includeing swabing between every shot. Perhaps I am wrong but My thinking is I have do do everything a close to the same as I can to get consistant results on the target ??? But let Me say I must be doing "SOMETHING WRONG" to be having the misfire problem I am indeed having. I use Hoppies # 9 plus for the slightly damp patch between shots, but do not or at least have not used a dry patch after the slightly damp one .
I just came up from the bacement after RECLEANING My barrel. It was in very nice shape. Zero rust of corrosion. I ran a pipe cleaner thru the port under the nipple, It was a clean as a whistle, The nipple appears fine. And as near as I can inspect everything looks good ? But as I said I AM DOING SOMETHING WRONG. I just don't know what yet Perhaps My slighty damp patch in indeed to damp ? :surrender: I added the above information to try and andwser some of Your inquirys....... Not to sound like a know it all. That all went away after I grew up past 50 and realized that all My andwsers I had at 16 years of age had flaws......... :haha: :redface: Keep You suggestions coming.......THANKS ADC Trapper
 
For target shooting, and for the trick shooting I used to enjoy doing at my club and for demonstrations, I clean between every shot. You can get lots of opinions here about when to clean. I never could figure out when I needed to clean if I didn't clean after every shot. By the time getting a ball down was hard, It was also STUCK midway down the barrel!!! :shocked2: :rotf:

After having to pull those balls, and then clean, I decided that the Good Lord was having WAY TOO MUCH a sense of humor about letting me shoot a " dirty bore ", so I just decided to clean between shots, and avoid the situation entirely. And, you are correct: Consistency does require that you fire each shot from a bore that is similar in condition as it was for the prior shot(s).

If you used Hoppes #9 and that pumping system to clean the barrel before putting it away for storage the last time out, I would expect the flash channel to be clear, the nipple clean, and the bore spotless. Even that powder chamber should be clean. That is what that " Pressure wash " is suppose to do.

However, that is not what you are doing at the range.

Check for the existence, and diameter, and length of that Powder chamber. T/Cs have them; I suspect your GM breechplug has it too. This is the " NOCK-Style Patent" Breech. With a right angled flash channel leading from the bottom of the nipple, to the middle of the back of the smaller powder chamber. Most of the chamber run from 1/4" to about .32 caliber. Most are about 1/2" long.

As for what to do in a Gulf Area, where humidity is always high, I think you need to anticipate that condensation will increase as the barrel heats up. The more shots fired, the more moisture begins to condense on the flash channel, the powder channel, and the bore. What you HAVE been doing is cleaning the bore. If you don't have a reduced size swab, or brush to clean that powder chamber, moisture is collecting there, either from condensation, from TOO MUCH Hoppes solvent, or both. And, If your cleaning Jag is NOT the correct size to allow your cleaning patch to slide over the lands, only to bunch up when you pull the cleaning patch up, thereby digging down into the grooves, and pulling the crud out of the barrel from both the grooves and the lands, you will be pushing crud back down into that powder chamber.

Use a stepped cleaning jag. The most forward, or " bottom " ring, should be about .020" smaller than bore diameter. Each of the 3 or 4 other rings should be slightly smaller. You can put the jag into a hand drill or drill press and use a file to make such a jag. Some are also sold.

The important measure measurement is that it be small enough to pass the patching OVER the lands, so that the majority of the crud is not loosened until you pull the patch OUT.

The cleaning jag is different from a Loading Jag, for instance, used in loading a smoothbore barrel. There, you want a jag that has a forward edge that is just a few thousandths smaller than bore diameter, so that it will support and seat the edges of wads solidly against the sides of the barrel. You generally don't need this difference in jags seating either a PRB, or a conical in a rifled barrel, so one jag should do both jobs for you. Many shooters make the mistake of either using the same patches that they wrap around the ball as a cleaning patch(?), or they buy a jag that is too wide, and it won't allow the cleaning patch to slide over the lands. That then, pushes the crud down into the breech, and causes problems.

On humid days, have a small bottle of alcohol handy in your range box, and don't hesitate to flush out the barrel with it, if you find the " dry Patch" you run down to pull out the dampness from your " damp patch" is getting pretty wet. I use a second dry patch. By the time I have cleaned the crud out with my damp patch, 2 passes, one each side, or with 2 different patches, then run that first dry patch down, I have not had anything left in the grooves or on the lands that will hand up the second dry patch. If you don't have the time to flush with a 1/2 oz. of alcohol, then by all means, soak a cleaning patch, liberally, and run that down the barrel so that it does send alcohol down the powder chamber, into the flash channel. That is when I remove the clean out screw, BTW, and use a pipe cleaner to dry and remove the crud stirred loose by the alcohol. A wire down the nipple insures that it is clear. Do whipe off the nipple after each shot, and if you are seeing white powder collecting on the inside of that nipple, hit it with the hoppes, or a patch soaked in alcohol. Then check it to be sure the nipple hole is clear with your wire, after the alcohol has evaporated.

My brother lives in Florida, and we talk about his range sessions every time he comes back home.( 2x or more a week). I am aware of high humidity and high heat shooting problems. We talk about them all the time. What I am describing is what has worked for him there.

I have taken some of these suggestions to use myself here in Central Illinois during July and August, and in some Septembers when the Gods have forgotten that Fall is suppose to be beginning!!! We don't get the over 100 degree temperatures you do, but our relative humidity is rarely below 45%, and often higher than 70%. One day a couple of weeks ago, when Dallas was at 102, it was " only " 92 degrees here, but we had 72% relative humidity that gave us a heat index of 104!!! That is " muggy", by Cornbelt standards. And its hell on rifles with the condensation that is produced inside the barrels.

Conversely, in January through March, our relative humidity gets down to nose-bleed levels, often under 15%. Its the dry air and cold that now causes condensation in the barrels, more so when you take the gun indoors. Blowing down the barrel in below freezing temperatures turns the residue into soup! and fouls the powder charge every time. We clean with alcohol soaked patches in those conditions, and leave the water based Hoppes for indoor cleaning where its warmer. If you blow down the barrel outdoors to " loosen the residue" but then don't run a patch down before the barrel cools, the condensation freezes! Then you have to use alcohol, or de-icer or anti-freeze to clean the barrel! The colder it is, the faster you have to work, unless you just use alcohol and keep your breath away from that muzzle. Fall, and in some Spring days, is when shooting can be done in mild temperatures( 45 -65 degrees) and the humidity does not become a bother.
 
after you dump the powder charge give the breech area a few firm whacks with the palm of your hand opposite the nipple/drum side to jar grains into the flash channel. then load PRB or slug. likely will help.
and if you dry-patch after the shots use a loose fitting patch on the jag it will bunch up on the way pulling out and drag crud with it.
 
Paul; I had NEVER considered Humidty to be a possible cause for the problem........ Altho it well could be, As very hot with a 100 % humity is almost the norm. And Your correct I am swabing the bore but not the pat. breech. Which to Me makes the most sence of all the sugestions I have been grateful to recieve. And is something I am going to address in the future. Also the alcohol treatment is something I have never tryed. :applause: I only shoot patched roundballs. All this modern thinking, all for more firepower / knockdown,, 3 pellets of pyrodex defeats the pourpose of why I like Muzzleloading. But then I'M gettin Old I guess. Don't take Me wrong inline Guys, I would rather see You and Your inline go into the deer woods as a fellow Gun Owner than See You on CNN preaching against Gun owners. But its traditional for My tastes. I want to thank Everyone for there sugestions........ But with what experence I have Pauls seem to be to be the best proable causes so far........ Then Again I never Met a Dummy who thought He was doing anything on HIS PART wrong either. So just possable I'M not as smart as I think ........... My Wife takes a lot of pleasure everytime She proves Me WRONG :confused: But You can bet Your Butt I'M gonna work on cleaning the Pat. breech between shots also. Many Thanks to Everyone. ADC Trapper
 
I bought a GM drop-in recently (38"x1", .40 cal.) and after five shots or so, got pop-bang hangs.
I was using 50 gr 3f, CCI Magnum caps and hot-shot nipples. I think if you hold through on a popbang, it's still accurate.

Anyway, GM thought I might be pushing crud in the flash chanel.
I use alch between shots so started using as little as possible.

Another shooter took my rifle and drilled a hole in the clean-out screw.
That stopped the hangs but accuracy went down. I guess the hole was too big. He ran a wire throught the chanel in case of burrs. This helped.

Another guy, a machinist had drilled a cleanout screw hole for another shooter, small enough so a needle would go in but it
shot just fine afte that.
 
BrownBear said:
First thing I'd do is change to a new nipple, whether a simple replacement of what you're already using or a hotshot of some sort. If you were getting 50 shots before and the problem is getting worse and worse, I can't see that your current swabbing methods would have anything to do with the situation. Heck. I don't even bother swabbing in any of my guns till I notice the seating effort mounting.

Any time I have been getting misfires and hangfires, it's been due to nipple deterioration or crud buildup in the flame channel. I'm wondering if over time a permanent layer of crud has been building in your flame channel. If I was going to change anything in your procedure it would be a more aggressive effort in your after-shoot cleaning of the flame channel.


YEP!
I also always rest the gun butt on my toe as I poor the powder in and the TAP, TAP, TAP my toe to "shake" the powder into the flash channel. VERY SELDOM have ANY fireing issues (I also use musket caps exclusively too.)
 
hey ADC Trapper, bout all i can say is aint that the way of a Hawkins lol. I use a lot of pipe cleaners on mine .
I don't know much bout anything but i do know A. D. C. lol i sent you a PM.
 

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