ignition troubles

[Jmullins555]

I shoot a .50 cal. traditions deerhunter side lock, loaded with 60 gr. of FFg Pyrodex select RS and capped with #11 CCI caps. I swab the barrel between shots with a lightly damp 90% alcohol patch then follow that with 2 dry patches to make sure the barrel is dry. I make sure the nipple is picked and clear and also fire a couple of caps before the first load to make sure everything is clear. Its a coin toss as to where it will fire once loaded. I've had a couple of suggestions of drilling the nipples out to upsize the flash hole, and to try Goex FFg black powder. The gun shoots really great and accurate when it goes off. Just wanted to know if there were any other suggestions from someone who has experienced this problem.

thanks

 

[BrownBear]

I've had a couple of suggestions of drilling the nipples out to upsize the flash hole....

Run far and fast from those suggestions. :barf: Downright dangerous, and your sources don't know what they're talking about. I'd question anything else they've ever told you.

Easiest thing to try is to dispense with the alcohol and try a patch dampened with spit. The fouling from black powder and subs are water soluble, but I'm not so sure about alcohol. Could be leaving a residue you're pushing back down into the bore and flash channel.

You might also go to a thinner cleaning patch. The idea is to get the patch down past the fouling without moving it much, so when you start pulling your rod back out and the patch balls up against the top of the jag, it pulls the fouling back up and out of the bore, rather than shoving it down into the flash channel.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.
I agree with BB.

Do not enlarge the flash hole in the nipple.

If you use a damp patch when shooting Pyrodex you should not have to wipe the bore at all between shots.
Although Pyrodex leaves some fouling, unlike black powder, it doesn't seem to build up.
I've shot over 30 rounds using Pyrodex and never needed to wipe the bore.

I do sometimes notice a slight delay with Pyrodex RS and have found that Pyrodex P is noticeably faster to ignite with much less hesitation.
If you use Pyrodex P, reduce your powder load about 10 percent to end up with a similar velocity.
Also, using the CCI #11 Magnum caps will improve things.

Real black powder of any brand will fire much more reliably than any of the synthetic powders.
If you can get it, it's worth the trouble, even if it does require wiping the bore after 3 or 4 shots.

 

[Leatherbark]

Even though black powder will help immensly, the type of breech your gun has is part of the problem. Way down in your barrel at the end is a hole. This hole is not very big (maybe 3/32). When you pour powder down the hole it has to go into this hole and make a 90 degree left hand turn and travel over about and inch to where it is under the nipple. When you swab the stuff stuck to the barrel walls gets crammed in this hole and then it blocks your next powder charge.

My suggestion is if you are going to use Pyrodex

1. Dont swab or swab after you load (damp patch)
2. When you pour your powder smack the side of
the gun on the lock side to force the powder
over tto the nipple
3. Use Magnum No.11 caps (pyrodex only)

Good Luck

Bob

 

[Rifleman1776]

I agree with others on almost all suggestions so far. Most especially, do not drill the nipple. The tiny holes are designed in there for a reason, to concentrate the flame for a more efficient ignition.
Do use real black powder.
As for the swabbing, you are way overdoing things. Do coninue to swab but a damp spit patch between shots is plent to give consistency. One damp patch is fine then reload, you will not make your bore wet.

 

[Billnpatti]

I'd say it is likely one of three things. First, it may be that your flash channel is not clean. Have you been cleaning your rifle using modern cleaners? If so, you are not thoroughly cleaning your barrel. You need to use soapy water to get your barrel properly clean. To correct this problem, thoroughly wash out your barrel using soapy water. Then dry thoroughly and lightly oil. The next possibility is that your powder is being fouled by oil that may remain in the breach area. If your powder area is smaller than the bore, you will need to use a small jag that fits into the small area at your breach to get out all of the residual oil. Lastly, I highly recommend using real black powder if you can get your hands on some. The various substitutes have a higher ignition temperature and are not as easily ignited as real black powder. They usually work fine in a caplock but will not work in a flintlock. You have a caplock and a substitute should work just fine but if you are having trouble, real black powder may help you.

To sum up, make sure your powder chamber and flash channel are clean and unobstructed and change over to real black powder and your problem should be resolved. :thumbsup:

 

[AZbpBurner]

I've got a .54 cal Lyman Deerslayer that was fired little & insufficiently cleaned before passing on thru hands of subsequent owners. Despite a couple of pits near the muzzle, the bore looks clean.

For now, I use Pyrodex RS exclusively - Pyrodex P may be more appropriate for your .50 cal if you can't access real 3F BP.

One often overlooked section of the ignition system is that nasty little channel that makes a righthand turn for the cap fire to negotiate.
It's a good idea to remove the cleanout screw and the nipple every time you clean. scrub thru the nipple hole with a .22 bore brush, and use pipe cleaner material (in the 21st century, younger shooters may recognise it as "AR-15 gas tube cleaners"). You may think you're pretty good with Q-Tips - if so, go for it, but keep in mind that you need to guarantee you're not leaving any Q-Tip fibers behind in the flash channel.

With my rifle, it was necessary to not only clean out accumulated crud, after removing the cleanout screw, but I also had to scrape out rust & junk with a wire twist drill bit. You don't want to necessarily bore it out, just scrape it by hand down to clean metal. If you have an older caplock rifle that hasn't had the flash channel cleaned out after EVERY use throughout the years, you will find that a lot of stuff will scrape out & your ignition will magically improve.

Oil it up for storage & put a dab of grease or anti-seize on the cleanut screw.

Now, prior to loading & firing, be sure to cleanout the drum or snail to ensure there's NO residual oil left. For some rifles, folks are able to just pop a couple of caps to clear out residual oil, but in a more sensitive set up such as yours & mine, you end up with more evenly distributed oil along the channel - now also having a fine layer of primer soot stuck to it.

Use whatever patch lube you like - yours will be better than everyone else's - but only because it's yours. Talk to 100 shooters & you'll get 100 lube recipes - every one is better than all the rest ...

In general, it's advantageous to saturate ball patches with a melted lube that soaks into patch fibers then solidifies. If you can pour out a lube onto a patch it's too thin, unless you take the time to work it completely into the patch material - proponents of spit, Moose Milk & olive oil concoctions will disagree, but remember THEIR stuff is all better than everyone elses' too.

And, since someone will ask: I use a blend of tallow & beeswax, and it does have just a little olive oil in it, too :wink:

 

[cynthialee]

I have a CVA rifle that is very picky. When I swab it, I have to have the gun laying on its side. If it if in the more traditional muzzle up position there are issues.
Also, I use the CCI magnum caps. If I do both these things then I get ignition every time. If I don't, ignition is a hit and miss affair.

Which is kinda a bummer as my CVA is very accurate with light powder charges. But I don't care to fight with it, or buy special caps, so my T/C rifles get used more.

 

[William O.]

I think that you should stick with the slightly dampened cleaning patch whether you use alcohol or spit. The advantage of using alcohol is that it naturally attracts water and evaporates quickly, so you shouldn't need to follow up with dry patches afterwards. Swabbing is just that, down and up then either turn the patch over and do it again or discard it. The alcohol should remove most of the fouling. Are you using a cleaning jag with the cleaning patch? The patch on the jag should give some resistance when you push it down the barrel, if it's very loose then your cleaning patches need to be thicker. My favorite cleaning patch material is cotton flannel that I get from the local fabric store that I cut into squares. Also, run an alcohol dampened cleaning patch down the bore before every shooting session to remove any oil left over from storage. The snap a cap or two to clear the flash channel. I like to put a cleaning patch in the muzzle before snapping a cap so I can see if everything is clear before loading. If the patch doesn't when the cap goes off then you know something isn't clear.

 

[nw_hunter]

Lots of good suggestions!
I use Black most of the time, but do use Pyrodex also. I never use anything but 3f Black or Pyro P in all my guns. Pyrodex is lighter than BP so may be a little harder getting it to the flash channel.I have had problems with Pyrodex RS and Select.(Slower ignition, and failure to fire.The finer grain of the P will find it's way into those hard to reach places better.

Try Real Black if available.
The flash point for Pyro is around 750 degrees. Black (I believe) is around 400.The bonus using 3f or P is...it's cheaper to shoot, since it costs the same, and you get about 10% more shots per can :hmm:

 

[Little Wattsy]

Welcome to the Forum.

Although Pyrodex leaves some fouling, unlike black powder, it doesn't seem to build up.
I've shot over 30 rounds using Pyrodex and never needed to wipe the bore.

.

I shoot Pyrodex RS almost exclusively... I set it off with CCI #11 mag caps. I seldom if ever wipe between shots and never have any issues. Also having shot Pyrodex next to "real black" powder, using the same ignition system, I have noticed no difference ....
So, when I start I wipe my bore with a wet alcohol patch to get the oil out, then I fire two to 4 caps at a piece of grass or a leaf to make sure I can move it with just the cap going off = good dry passage way from the nipple all the way out the barrel, Then Im ready to shoot. NO Problems. and that is every gun I own from traditions, TC Renegade, TC Hawken, and a few kits...

Good luck...

 

[cowpoke1955]

Pyrodex has a higher ignition point than black powder. Try replacing your nipple with a Hot Shot or Spitfire nipple: http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=14127 . The Hot Shot can be found at Track of the Wolf: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1 . Both are designed to deliver a bigger flame to the powder charge, which is a big plus with Pyrodex. I've never had a misfire or hang firs with these nipples. If you can find some #11 magnum caps would also help.

 

[Jmullins555]

Thank you all very much. I really appreciate the great advise. I'm looking forward to trying these things out and also being part of the community. Thanks again

 

[crockett]

Jdm: Let's walk through this a little more. You said you snapped a couple of caps at the beginning of the day. The only way you can be having trouble is if there is some sort of blockage in the drum area. You swab between shots. In a lot of instances the running of a patch down a fouled bore pushes all the fouling down that bore and some of it plugs up the hole from the drum to the bore.
Next time you shoot try this:
1. I understand swabbing between shots, it makes it a lot easier to push the ball down the bore.
2. After you fire the gun swab as normal but before putting in a measure of powder- snap a cap to blow out any fouling that might be blocking the drum's hole. When you snap this cap find some soft sand or tall grass and aim the muzzle at it (as long as it's in a safe direction). When you snap the cap the force of the cap ought to dimple the sand or cause the grass to move. That insures you have a clear path for the next shot. After snapping the cap load as normal.
3. Alternative loading methods....there's all sorts of things folks do. Some blow down a barrel, you can cup your hand over the end to direct the force of your blow so you never have your head over the muzzle. Folks who do this look for some smoke to come out the flash hole/nipple. I myself don't do this. Another thing is to NOT swab between shots, this leaves the fouling clinging to the bore rather than getting pushed down into the drum area. When you ram the ball the patch tends to then push down the fouling but now it is on top of the powder charge. If you try this but find it difficult to ram the PRB you can try a felt wad. Pour in the powder and then a felt wad. The wad pushed the fouling down on top of the powder and now you can seat the PRB with less effort.
Still more options are a better nipple. NEVER dril out a nipple, buy one especually designed to allow more flash into the drum. Yet another alternative- and not a bad one if you use Pyrodex or a substitute- is a musket sized percussion cap. They are quite a bit larger and give more flash and they have a rim that makes them easier to hold and push on the nipple. You need to get a special nipple that SCREWS INTO a stanard nipple thread BUT is oversized and designed to take a musket cap.
Finally you can vet a drum. I've never done this but directions are (or were) in the Dixie Gun Works catalog. You drill a tiny hole (I don't know the diameter) in the drum. This is supposed to vent off some pressure and allow the flame to more easily reach the powder. Once again, I've read about this but never have done it.

 

[Pioneer flinter]

hey jdm all of these are great suggestions. one thing I would do is after you load your gun and before you cap it pull the nipple and look in the drum there should be powder in there. if not you have a blockage. try dribbling some powder in there replace the nipple blow or wipe off any left over powder. cap and shoot see if this helps. shoot straight and God bless.

 

[bpd303]

Jdm:
Finally you can vet a drum. I've never done this but directions are (or were) in the Dixie Gun Works catalog. You drill a tiny hole (I don't know the diameter) in the drum. This is supposed to vent off some pressure and allow the flame to more easily reach the powder. Once again, I've read about this but never have done it.

If you decide to vent the drum be very careful where you place your fingers & other body parts when shooting. The vent gasses, like superheated steam will do much harm to flesh and anyone standing close.

 

[George T.]

Here is my 2 cents! Much of this had been said already. One thing though is this a situation with every shot or just the first one. For the first shot I shoot a shot of carb cleaner down the barrel. When it quits dripping dry it with a couple of clean dry patches. Then snap a couple of caps and wipe again with a dry patch.

If it's a issue with every shot then you do need to put it in a bucket of warm water with a little soap added. Pump the rod with a patch on it with the water going in and out like a pump.

Use a brass brush of about 35 caliber with a patch wrapped around it to clean the patent breach out. Plop it back in the water and pump it some more. This should clean out the flash channel. Replace the nipple if you have no idea how much it has been used.

When you load your rifle try to drop the powder in with the rifle leaning a little nipple down. Pat the side of the barrel. I have used black powder all along but you should be able to get the Pyrodex to work as many do! Good Luck!
Geo. T.

 

[Jmullins555]

Again thanks for the great suggestions. I made it to kygunco today and purchased 2 lbs. of shuetzen black powder. I'm gonna try this first if that doesn't do it then I'll try the magnum cci caps, next will be the hot shot nipple. If all this doesn't work then I'm ordering the 209 primer cap converter for sidelocks. Hopefully I'll get good ignition long before that. Thanks again everyone. I will keep all posted to what I find.

 

[crockett]

That all sounds like a plan but at least for a short time try that cap before the powder. It means you'll be using two caps everytime you shoot, one to clear the drum and then the other cap to fire the charge. Not many people want to waste that many caps but it pretty much insures 100% ignition.

 

[hanshi]

....and I'll only add (myself, only) that drilling a hole in a drum sends a cold shiver down my spine. :v: