I built myself a .50 poor boy rifle about 20 years ago with a barrel of questionable ancestry. I have been trying to get this thing to shoot for about 19 years. I got tired of fighting it and recently bought a green mountain for a rebarrel job. The only advice I can offer is don't fight it for 20 years. Your patterns and experience sound a lot like mine. M. New
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Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
jerry huddleston said:
Yes, back off on the charge, 40 to 45 grains of 3f, maybe a little more but max out at 65 grains. And Mike's suggestion about slotting the pin holes in the lugs is good as well.
jerry huddleston said:
The individual's post is about poor accuracy, so your reply is that anything over 65grns in a .45cal causes poor accuracy?
Could we all have the benefit of a detailed explanation of how anything over 65grns in a .45cal cause poor accuracy?
Thanks in advance...
hanshi
Cannon
Up until recently my hunting load for my .45 flint has been 80grns 3F and it shot extremely well. After finding that it shoots just as well with 60 to 70 grains I've settled on 70grns only because it uses less powder. 80grns isn't too much for a .45 in my experience.
Speaking of 65 grains of powder in a .45 caliber rifle, I am reading the records of a man who in 1846 traveled with a wagon train to California.
In an early chapter, he mentioned the amount of supplies the train was carrying.
Wagons = 65
Men = 119
Women = 59
Children = 110
38,080 pounds of bacon
58,484 pounds of "breadstuffs"
1,065 pounds of Powder
2,557 pounds of Lead
144 Rifles
94 Pistols
700 cattle (estimated)(this was an ox powered train)
150 horses
Looking at the powder weight divided by the lead weight I get a ratio of .417
If they had some .45 caliber rifle shooting a .440" diameter roundball that weighs 128 grains they figured that each load would be about 53 grains of powder.
A .50 caliber rifle shooting a .490 diameter roundball that weighs 188 grains would use about 78 grains of powder.
Now, I'm not saying that we should all use these powder loads in our rifles but I think it interesting that our powder loads that are pretty close to those I calculated for the travelers seem to work pretty good. At least in my rifles.
OK. OK....I'll sit down and be quiet (for awhile).
In an early chapter, he mentioned the amount of supplies the train was carrying.
Wagons = 65
Men = 119
Women = 59
Children = 110
38,080 pounds of bacon
58,484 pounds of "breadstuffs"
1,065 pounds of Powder
2,557 pounds of Lead
144 Rifles
94 Pistols
700 cattle (estimated)(this was an ox powered train)
150 horses
Looking at the powder weight divided by the lead weight I get a ratio of .417
If they had some .45 caliber rifle shooting a .440" diameter roundball that weighs 128 grains they figured that each load would be about 53 grains of powder.
A .50 caliber rifle shooting a .490 diameter roundball that weighs 188 grains would use about 78 grains of powder.
Now, I'm not saying that we should all use these powder loads in our rifles but I think it interesting that our powder loads that are pretty close to those I calculated for the travelers seem to work pretty good. At least in my rifles.
OK. OK....I'll sit down and be quiet (for awhile).
don hepler
58 Cal.
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I have 3 flintlock rifles and am having the same problem. I shoot good groups at 25 yards and terrible at 50 yards. I believe it is my eye sight and these primitive iron sights. I'm 61 years old, but at age 38 was about the time I started wearing bifocals. I shoot my 1903 A3 pretty good at 50 yards but it has peep sights. I'm going to take one of my centerfire rifles and shoot it with open sights to see what I'm capable of, and this will hopefully give me an idea of what to expect at various yardages and then when that has been established I can go back to shooting the flintlock and work on it again. Just my two cents worth. Good Luck.
I had at the begining a problem with flinch, but was not 100% sure.What I did was to use sand bags on the bench and concentrate only on the front sigth.Load only the pan and squize the triger.If you flinch ,when the smoke clears, you will see your aim point shifted.That made me a lot better with the follow up and got rid of the flinch.
mr.flintlock
40 Cal.
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- Feb 12, 2010
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All of the advice I have seen here so far is good things to check. One thing I have not seen touched on is to check your sights and make sure they are tight in the dovetail slots.If they are moving the slightest amount when you shoot it will change the impact of your shots.
The first thing to eliminate in this equation is you. :shocked2: You can't tell a thing unless the rifle is in the same place each and every time you shoot. Ignore all the previous "help" and get the gun firmly secured. :thumbsup:
Now you can work on a good load. Remember even in the rest the gun can be canted either to the left or right so you must make sure it is perpendicular each time also. :hmm: Get a good rest and go make it shoot. :bow:
Now you can work on a good load. Remember even in the rest the gun can be canted either to the left or right so you must make sure it is perpendicular each time also. :hmm: Get a good rest and go make it shoot. :bow:
I would do several things, slot your underlugs front to back, snug but not torque down your tang and lock bolts, change ball size and patch thickness.
Lastly, buy the Dutch Schoultz pamphlet "Black Powder Accuracy", lots of insight on getting a rifle to perform at peak accuracy. It is available on line if you goggle the above.
Lastly, buy the Dutch Schoultz pamphlet "Black Powder Accuracy", lots of insight on getting a rifle to perform at peak accuracy. It is available on line if you goggle the above.
Here is my low tech, cheap, collapsible shooting bench. Works as well as any high dollar bench. Just an idea if you need a stable place to shoot from.
Not to insult you, but I think you need someone else to shoot the rifle til you find a load. Obviously, what you are doing is not working.
First thing is eliminate shooter error.
Shoot off a Solid bench with a Sand Bag under the entrypipe and a Sand Bag under the Butt. Sandbags do all the supporting, you just line it up. The larger the bench& more stable it is, the better the groups will generally be, IMHO.
Start at 45 grains of 3F, .440 ball, .015 PT and patch grease.
1" Black dot bull @ 25 yards.
shoot 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 50 grains. 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 55 grains. 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 60 grains. 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 65 grains. 3 shots.
One of those targets should be grouping close & I mean 3 cutting or real close to cutting.
Shoot that group again & insure it is doing that.
If they are not cutting, change lube or ball size. & do it all over, keep changing til you find the best group.
Sometimes this happens in a few hours, sometimes in a few days, sometimes takes a few weeks.
Documentation is Most Important, so you don't repeat yourself.
LOTS of things have to be Consistent.
The amount of lube you use Each Shot.
Powder charge on Each Shot.
Patches all the same thickness & Same Brand or Same Batch of PT. You cannot guess, you have to Mic the material. DO NOT go by what the supplier said it is... Mic it.
Balls from the same supplier & check to insure they are the same dia.
Swabbing........ Must be the same Every Time.... You are not cleaning the barrel. you are making the barrel Consistent from shot to shot.
If you wet the patch, it must be the same wetness Every Time.
If you swabbed down & back One Time, then on the next shot went down & back 2 times.... you just screwed up, as you Changed The Barrel Condition..... That will change the grouping....
Flinching....... If You KNOW when the rifle is going to go off...... you will not shoot good groups..... If you Know it is going off, you are anticipating the ignition & will flinch or pull....
Every time the rifles fires.. you should be surprised it went off, thus you did not anticipate the ignition.....
Just my opinion on it all....... and just an opinion....
Keith Lisle
First thing is eliminate shooter error.
Shoot off a Solid bench with a Sand Bag under the entrypipe and a Sand Bag under the Butt. Sandbags do all the supporting, you just line it up. The larger the bench& more stable it is, the better the groups will generally be, IMHO.
Start at 45 grains of 3F, .440 ball, .015 PT and patch grease.
1" Black dot bull @ 25 yards.
shoot 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 50 grains. 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 55 grains. 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 60 grains. 3 shots.
Change targets. Go to 65 grains. 3 shots.
One of those targets should be grouping close & I mean 3 cutting or real close to cutting.
Shoot that group again & insure it is doing that.
If they are not cutting, change lube or ball size. & do it all over, keep changing til you find the best group.
Sometimes this happens in a few hours, sometimes in a few days, sometimes takes a few weeks.
Documentation is Most Important, so you don't repeat yourself.
LOTS of things have to be Consistent.
The amount of lube you use Each Shot.
Powder charge on Each Shot.
Patches all the same thickness & Same Brand or Same Batch of PT. You cannot guess, you have to Mic the material. DO NOT go by what the supplier said it is... Mic it.
Balls from the same supplier & check to insure they are the same dia.
Swabbing........ Must be the same Every Time.... You are not cleaning the barrel. you are making the barrel Consistent from shot to shot.
If you wet the patch, it must be the same wetness Every Time.
If you swabbed down & back One Time, then on the next shot went down & back 2 times.... you just screwed up, as you Changed The Barrel Condition..... That will change the grouping....
Flinching....... If You KNOW when the rifle is going to go off...... you will not shoot good groups..... If you Know it is going off, you are anticipating the ignition & will flinch or pull....
Every time the rifles fires.. you should be surprised it went off, thus you did not anticipate the ignition.....
Just my opinion on it all....... and just an opinion....
Keith Lisle
I agree with all this and I will add one more. Do you know how many people will torque a gun even when in the shooting bags? The gun should be bagged so that it is on target, whether you are touching the gun or not.If you have to lean on the gun in anyway to force it on target, you are torquing the gun and there is no way it can be consistent, unless you have the ability to torque it the same way every time you shoot. This is me and your mileage may vary, but the only thing I want to be when I shoot a gun is the trigger guy. The pull on the trigger should be straight back. Don't allow the palm of your trigger hand to be pushing against the stock, it will pull the shot to the side. Don't force the gun to be buried into the bags by forcing it down to get on target. Don't use your forearm hand to be pulling the gun down into the bags. All this will cause torque on the gun and give inconsistent results. The gun should be free of torque or twist to be on target. Again YMMV, but this is what works for me.
I just discovered my rear sight is slightly loose in the dovetail. I am not able to move it far its more like the rear sight is able to "rattle" in the dovetail. Could this be causing some of my problems?
Muzzleloaders are something that I sort of just got interested in on my own so I dont know any other flint shooters besides the guys on the MLF. The club I belong to is mainly into modern arms. I have mentioned maybe starting some BP matches but it doesnt sound like any one is interested.
I talk to guys on the range and they see my rifle and look it over and say "thats neat" and I ask if they would like to shoot it hoping to lure someone into the "front stuffer trap" and they always say no and go back to shooting their bench guns and AR's
Thanks to all for the suggestions. For me nothing compares to the fun factor of shooting a flinter but I would like to start adding some accuracy to the mix so I can take it hunting.
Muzzleloaders are something that I sort of just got interested in on my own so I dont know any other flint shooters besides the guys on the MLF. The club I belong to is mainly into modern arms. I have mentioned maybe starting some BP matches but it doesnt sound like any one is interested.
I talk to guys on the range and they see my rifle and look it over and say "thats neat" and I ask if they would like to shoot it hoping to lure someone into the "front stuffer trap" and they always say no and go back to shooting their bench guns and AR's
Thanks to all for the suggestions. For me nothing compares to the fun factor of shooting a flinter but I would like to start adding some accuracy to the mix so I can take it hunting.
Whether or not its the cause of ALL your accuracy problems, I would suspect it contributes to it.lakota said:
While handling / cleaning / reloading, the sight may get pushed to a different position every now and then...doesn't take much change to show up at 50yds.
You have gotten some real good advice and suggestions from this forum. But you still seem a bit tensed up and discouraged. My only suggestion is before you go out shooting again take a good look at Keb's avatar. If that little guy doesn't bring a smile to your face and make you relax nothing will. :grin: Best of luck. :v
1/8 of an inch of movement will easily have you off the paper......... 1/16 will have you all over the paper. Front & Rear sight must be Stationary...... But also, you need to sand bag the rifle & take the guy holding it out of the equation...... Get it right, THEN work on the shooter, as then you KNOW what the rifle will do, then you work from there.
Keith Lisle
Keith Lisle
