Importance of Shot Placement vs Power

[Johnny Too-Tall]

There has been lots of talk about killing deer etc with 32, 36, 40, 45 - 72 Cal roundballs etc. Yes all will kill if shot was taken from a decent distance and hit in the vitals. Blood Trails will always vary regardless of caliber or charge. As a guy who processes over 1000 deer a year I see all kinds of hits. From shoulder blown to pieces to spine hits, gut shots, butt hits and everything in between. A larger caliber should NEVER be an excuse to make up for poor shot placement. I recently watched a video of a guy who shot a deer at 100 yards using a .50 cal BMG round if unfamiliar its a huge round designed to take out light armor and vehicles as well as people initial intended for military use going 3000fps with 700 grain bullet creating 14,000 ft/lbs of energy. The guy hit the deer in front of the shoulder and the deer ran off with little blood and was seen with hole in it later that day as well as next few days alive. The next day he hit a deer in chest at same distance and the exit hole was so big they couldn't show it on video. Bottom line is use the most accurate caliber you have that is adequate/legal/humane to hunt deer. Guns are tools - in mechanics you always want to use the right tool for the job. The same thing applies here. Now: I will be the first person to admit I challenge myself while hunting using a recurve this year, while leaving a $2500 new wheel bow at home, also using flintlock only this year while leaving modern CF's with high dollar scope/thermals in the safe. But I practiced all off season and ongoing throughout the season with recurve - I can hit ethically out to 40 yards with it but have limited my shot to only 20 yards in the woods on game. Same thing with flintlock I can hit well out to and past 150 yards with the 54 rifle but again I limit my shots in woods on game to 75 yards. Basically, I always use the rule take your max range you're good at on paper then divide it by 2 on game and that's my max distance. I don't make any exceptions to the self-imposed limitations. There's too many variables that happen in the woods, game moves, leaves/brush, limited light, unknow distance, etc., all come into play. In the processing shop each year we cut the top off a 2- liter bottle and label it for the year and its called the "death cup". We pull everything from deer broadheads, 22lr bullets, bird shot, buck shot, heck I've pulled out headlight pieces to broken off antler tips all nonlethal hits. Of course we pull out a mess of lethal hits too.

One more thing people come in getting upset if they did not get a pass through with gun. To me this is better as the deer literally soaked up 100 percent of energy the bullet delivered vs blowing through the deer and only part of energy being delivered to the deer the rest is expended on wherever the bullet/ball hits after. Sure pass throughs lead to better blood trails but its give and take. Anyways I been thinking about making this post for a few weeks and finally spoke my mind. Thanks for listening.

 

[Dave Marsh]

Well said. We have the same philosophy.

 

[russellshaffer]

Basically, I always use the rule take your max range your good at on paper then divide it by 2 on game and that's my max distance.

I had never heard this rule but it is a good one. I've pretty much been doing this but now I'll make it a rule to follow always. Thanks

 

[Spikebuck]

I agree until this:

One more thing people come in getting upset if they did not get a pass through with gun. To me this is better as the deer literally soaked up 100 percent of energy the bullet delivered vs blowing through the deer and only part of energy being delivered to the deer

Damage and wound channel is what matters. Having "energy to spare" in a passthru means you delivered energy sufficient to create the longest wound channel and most damage possible...ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. In the same wound channel scenario, the same style, size, weight, bullet that goes all the way through delivered THE SAME ENERGY of a lower powered one to the point the lower powered one stopped! Think about it...if you have a choice of a bullet stopping in the first lung or penetrating both and leaving two holes, which do you want?

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

I agree until this:


Damage and wound channel is what matters. Having "energy to spare" in a passthru means you delivered energy sufficient to create the longest wound channel and most damage possible...ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. In the same wound channel scenario, the same style, size, weight, bullet that goes all the way through delivered THE SAME ENERGY of a lower powered one to the point the lower powered one stopped! Think about it...if you have a choice of a bullet stopping in the first lung or penetrating both and leaving two holes, which do you want?

95% of all bullets we recover from deer go completely through the deer and stop at hide on far side. But I agree double lung is better than one lung. And yes damage and wound channel are very important. Like 75% of the guides I know will not allow hunters to use a 6.5 creed because it makes a small hole in and out. and ask any person that uses dogs for game recovery as a profession the number one rifle caliber they are called for is 6.5 creed. Its not even the calibers fault but bullet selection you have to use a bullet that will expand and not a target round.
But it doesn't take much to kill take out both lungs if you hit it square in chest behind shoulder. Heck the 10 year old neighbor kid killed a deer with a really cheap fiberglass recurve bow with wooden arrow with field point molded on (came as a kit for like $49 or something). His mom called and said he shot a deer in the yard could I help. The arrow took out both lungs with about a 20 pound draw. Arrow went right between ribs. Lucky yes, but being deer weren't in season and he obviously didn't have a license it created a problem. But that's another story.

 

[Sparkplug]

I started out and grew up small game hunting with airguns. Very quickly I came to understand the importance of knowing your game, weapon, and ability. Then keep all shots well within those limits.

Whatever I'm hunting, I not only study their patterns and behaviors. But also study their anatomy. Where is the off switch. What position does the animal need to be in for me to hit it?

At what range can I consistently hit that mark with my weapon of choice and KNOW in will be an instant lights out?

Then, if the shot presents itself, I will take it. If I am not 100% confident of the animal dropping on the spot I will let it walk.

I don't divide my range in half, but I do keep my shots well under the range of 100% confidence.

 

[waksupi]

Good topic.

 

[Greg Y]

I've killed 30 some elk with just about every single weapon from a longbow through super magnums. What I've found is that picking the projectile that has the ability to get to blood or oxygen moving organs is always effective. The bullets that upset at velocities in the contact speed and with 3 or so inches are always effective.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

What shots will drop an animal in its tracks with 100% certainty? The only two I know of are a head or spine shot and a head shot is risky. President Trump is a good example, fortunately, of how a certain head shot can go wrong. The high shoulder spine shot is a good one that will drop an animal in its tracks and unless it's too high will still be in the kill zone. I've seen several deer with a blown up heart take off on a dead run for 50 yards or more before falling over.

 

[Rancocas]

The famous writer Robert Ruark once said, "Use enough gun."
He was talking about big, dangerous African game, but he was so right. A .22 caliber, and I don't care if it's a .22lr, a .223, or a .220 Swift - .22's are NOT deer calibers. Yes, I am well aware that .22's have taken large game, but that does not mean they should be used for that purpose. Just, flat, unethical in my opinion.

As well as knowing the limits of your chosen weapon and caliber, know you own personal limits also. One time I went on a caribou hunt with an acquaintance. We both were using .30/06 rifles. I got my caribou at less than 50 yards. One shot. He got his at something like 400 yards. He fired six shots, only hitting the bull three times. Once low in the leg, once in the guts, and his last shot finally hit the caribou in the lungs. It was disgusting! I never hunted with him again.
The longest shot at game that I have ever taken in 66 years of hunting was about 190 yards at a Wyoming pronghorn. I had crawled flat on my belly through sagebrush and cactus to get that close. The small herd had spotted me and were nervous, but they hadn't figured out what I was. Now, I know that bow hunters and muzzleloaders have taken them from less than 50 yards. It can be done.
This current long-range shooting fad is totally disgusting and unethical to me. That is not hunting. It is sniping.
Back in the late 1990's I put away my modern rifles and went completely to traditional muzzleloaders for hunting purposes. I wanted and still want the challenge of getting as close to the game as possible before I take my one shot. 75 yards is my personal limit.

I did some bow and arrow hunting back in the 1970's. I had a nice recurve bow. I never got a deer with it. However, the thought of how an arrow kills was always on my mind. Have any of you archery hunters ever had a deer drop in its tracks from an arrow hit? Arrows cut and the game animal bleeds out. Having been in law enforcement for nearly 30 years I saw too many people sliced up in knife fights or murdered with a knife. I suppose I'm just squeamish, but bad cuts make me shudder. I have always rather face a man with a gun than a man who well knows how to use a knife. I gave up archery hunting over 40 years ago.

So, "to each, their own". But if I think someone is unethical for any reason in the hunting fields, I'll tell them about it, and if it happens again, I won't be hunting with them anymore.

 

[Greg Y]

What shots will drop an animal in its tracks with 100% certainty? The only two I know of are a head or spine shot and a head shot is risky. President Trump is a good example, fortunately, of how a certain head shot can go wrong. The high shoulder spine shot is a good one that will drop an animal in its tracks and unless it's too high will still be in the kill zone. I've seen several deer with a blown up heart take off on a dead run for 50 yards or more before falling over.

Central nervous hits are it....unless you drop a 500# bomb on it.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Energy Semenergy...what kills animals is either blood loss, or nervous system disconnect. I've killed more whitetails with a 50 cal PRB using 60gr of 2F than I have with my .54 cal and 100gr 2F.

But that's only because I just got the .54 cal a few years ago.

 

[Okie Hog]

What shots will drop an animal in its tracks with 100% certainty?

IME: Central nervous system shots. High shoulder and high behind the shoulder shots drop deer and hogs in their tracks.

Years ago i stopped shooting deer and hogs in the heart-lung area.after a hunter on another site recommended CNS shots.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

One more thing people come in getting upset if they did not get a pass through with gun. To me this is better as the deer literally soaked up 100 percent of energy the bullet delivered vs blowing through the deer and only part of energy being delivered to the deer the rest is expended on wherever the bullet/ball hits after. Sure pass throughs lead to better blood trails but its give and take. Anyways I been thinking about making this post for a few weeks and finally spoke my mind. Thanks for listening.

The only disagreement is the misunderstanding of "energy" here.

Two bullets impact the deer next to each other, one exits, one does not. The bullet that exits expends the SAME amount of energy as it passes through the deer as the bullet that remained, all other factors being equal. The exiting bullet simply had enough additional velocity to rupture the hide and continue. (IF the bullets had exactly the same velocity, they both would've remained) The only advantage to the bullet stopping within the deer is the possible recovery of the bullet. The advantage of a shot that goes through both sides of the deer IF the projectile hits both lungs, is the probability that both lungs will collapse faster.

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

IME: Central nervous system shots. High shoulder and high behind the shoulder shots drop deer and hogs in their tracks.

Years ago i stopped shooting deer and hogs in the heart-lung area.after a hunter on another site recommended CNS shots.

CNS Shots, aka Shoulder Shots are fine, if the deer presents the shot to the hunter. They do tend to crumple where they are standing. Double lung shots are also successful, but may require a short walk.

LD

 

[flatcreek]

What kind of velocity would be needed to pass through an average deer double lung shot, with 50 cal PRB at 50 yds.

 

[PEARL DRUMS]

Loved reading your post. Dad and I USED to process hundreds of deer and found all the same things you do/did. We had a girt on the wall that was just lined with bullets, broad heads, wire, plastic and even sabots, from those very close range shots. I was also amazed how many were hit by cars. I don't miss that commitment every fall. One thing we never found? That "perfect hit" that didn't kill the deer the first time it was shot. I hear that too often. "I hit it perfectly and cant find it". No, no you didn't or we'd have a dead deer on the ground.

Great post Too Tall

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

60gr FF will do it at close range….say up to 20 yds. But 100 gr will punch through any whitetail provided no big bone was hit.

 

[waksupi]

Loved reading your post. Dad and I USED to process hundreds of deer and found all the same things you do/did. We had a girt on the wall that was just lined with bullets, broad heads, wire, plastic and even sabots, from those very close range shots. I was also amazed how many were hit by cars. I don't miss that commitment every fall. One thing we never found? That "perfect hit" that didn't kill the deer the first time it was shot. I hear that too often. "I hit it perfectly and cant find it". No, no you didn't or we'd have a dead deer on the ground.

Great post Too Tall

The thing most hunters lack is good tracking skills, and knowledge of the game they hunt.

 

[beardedhorse]

Latest cow elk harvest was 20 feet on Sept. 20. One frontal shot just to right of sternum. .530 round ball powered by 70 gr fffg went full length and moderately flattened ball rested just inside the hide. Made "lung pudding", looks like someone put a wire whip or blender into a big tub of chocolate pudding. In contrast .715 round ball in .73 Curly Gostomski Sitting Fox smooth bore half stock pulled rug out from whitetail bucks on 4 different hunts. DOA. 120 grains ffg kills on both ends. Shots limited to 25 yards or less with one sight on the front on firearm named "Capital Punishment". 120 gr may seem excessive until it is called for duty on bison or black bear. Would advise against spine or sub spine shots with arrows. Found old broadheads there when processing 6 x 6 bull. One exception was bison killed with a single flint tipped arrow shot from modern recurve in the heart. The ranch owner, Wilbur Williams of Ft. Wallace said it dropped faster than other hunters' hits (not necessarily in the heart) with 20 gauge trade guns, long rifles, Hawkens, Enfields, zouaves, high power rifles, 45-70 black powder cartridges or modern aluminum. (Pre carbon graphite) arrows. I' m convinced of shot placement. Broadside double lung less likely to run far than heart or throat. Breaking a shoulder will anchor an elk or bear but ruin good meat.