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imy quest for tighter groups....

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richl

32 Cal.
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
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Hi Gang:
I have been hooked on blackpowder for about a year and a half, but I can not get tight groups to save my life..
Here is the deal:
Shooting a 30 year old, but pretty much mint T/C Hawken, in .50 cal.

I have tried different patches, from .15 to .22
2ff powder has been consistent, but in charges from 60 to 90 grains, I have no consistent pattern, and one charge does not seem to perform better than the other.
Balls: .490

By the way, all shooting is off a rest/bench, nice clear sight picture, steady as a rock.

I'm a decent shot, and I am stumped. Paul V, recently had a post about "some guns like .495 balls". That seems to be my next step.

Would you agree, or any other suggestions?

I plan on having a ragged five shot hole at 50 yards, not my current 3-4" spread. I'm open to any suggestions or advice.
By the way, I load and clean (between rounds) very consistently.
Thanks in advance,
Rich
 
If you're working with the standard shallow groove T/C barrel, all I can say is "good luck". With best loads they may shoot well enough to win prizes as some small rendezvous but you'll never see them in the top five at any match which draws 100 competitors. Trying for one hole groups with a T/C barrel is a bit like chasing your tail. :shake:
 
Does the barrel move at all in the barrel channel? Is the wedge pin looos at all?

Check your sights, rear sight nice and tight, not wobbly, loose at all?

First you want to only change one thing at a time and see how that shooots before changeing anything else.

I had two over the years that had to be sent back to T/C because we just could not get get them to shoor and I had a WMC that spents way to much time near a wood stove during hunting season and dried out. I fixed it by glass bedding the forearm. It gave me trouble free service after that right uo till the day I sold it and it continiues to take deer every year by its ne owner.
 
For the TC a ragged 5shot hole at 50 yards may be asking too much. Maybe possible at 25 yards though. If you can get all 5 in a 2" circle at 50 off a bench that is good. The shorter barrels are just a little harder to get that kind of consistency with because of the shorter sight distance of the barrel. I have a Traditions hawkin which is very comparable to the TC. At 25 off a bench I get the ragged hole often with 2 or 3 cutting the same hole. That just doesn't happen at 50 yards. Now I also have a flintlock with a 36" barrel that off a bench I can get them touching at 50 yards. Those shorter barreled rifles are really intended to perform well for hunting and not fine target shooting. Best of luck in your quest :thumbsup:
 
Try the .495 balls and also you may want to try .500 balls with .010 patch, seems to be what mine likes. im still working to try to tighten groups up a bit.Good luck and keep us posted :v
 
The first thing I notice is that you didn't mention what your patches looked like after shooting...That's a very key point, if they burn through you are lucky to have 3 inch groups...

Also, are these store bought prelubed???
I prefer to buy bulk cotton ticking and make Stumpy's Lube...

Second...What have you used for lube and how did you apply???

Third...Try Goex FFF powder...I noticed you mentioned you are using FF, but didn't specify brand...

Forth...When you ram the ball down the barrel, is it a nice smooth ride??? Or do you hit a tight spot anywhere???
 
Good stuff, guys, maybe I am expecting too much from this rifle.. (Still, I think I should be better from a rest)
To the questions:
This rifle has been stored for 30 years, it had about 20 balls shot through, it's whole life, that's it. (I bought it for my dad)
Sights are tight, wood is great, barrel is secured tight to the stock, no issues at all.

Patches: not burned through at all, and they all look consistent.

Powder: Goex 2ff.

What else should I look at?
By the way, I bought Dutch Shultz's system, and it's got a ton of good info, but as I'm at work, what distance are his sample targets suppose to represent? I "assumed" those were 50 yard targets??
Rich
 
I have the same problem with my .54 T/C Hawkens. I was using .530 balls and pillow ticking patch. This load was so hard to load, I had to really pound the ball in. I think I would have better accuracy with a smooth bore at 100 yards. Roundball suggested to use .520 balls, which I plan on trying. NOW, Maxi Balls are another story! I got a T/C mold for the .54 cal. 400 grain Maxi Ball. These things are easy to load and will give me a 1" group at 50 yards. It will also shoot the Lee 380 grain REAL bullets very well. That was the original intent for this rifle, shooting conicals. I just had to try round balls, but.... I also have two .54 GPRs that will give me one ragged hole at 50 yards with round balls.
 
richl said:
Good stuff, guys, maybe I am expecting too much from this rifle.. (Still, I think I should be better from a rest)
To the questions:
This rifle has been stored for 30 years, it had about 20 balls shot through, it's whole life, that's it. (I bought it for my dad)
Sights are tight, wood is great, barrel is secured tight to the stock, no issues at all.

Patches: not burned through at all, and they all look consistent.

Powder: Goex 2ff.

What else should I look at?
By the way, I bought Dutch Shultz's system, and it's got a ton of good info, but as I'm at work, what distance are his sample targets suppose to represent? I "assumed" those were 50 yard targets??
Rich

I think you should deffinitely try 3F. It's about the only thing left for you to do beside trying the .495 ball. Now, I own a Traditions "Hawken" that doesn't shoot a lick with 3F, so powder can be a big component to accuracy for your rifle.

I think you might be asking too much from your barrel, too. If you get your group down to 2 inches at 50 yards I would be happy. That's about what I get from my "Hawken".
 
The coarse, large, and often sloppy sights on the T-C can also be a problem. You might think of a finer more rigid and secure set of sights. Most T-C rear sights have lateral slop which may shift from shot to shot.
 
Try the FFF and try changing patch lubes...

I like to take a zip lock and put 5-6 patches in with different lubes on them...

I know there is a list of lubes we have all tried, here are a few I have...Starting with what I use now...

Stumpy's Lube (Listed in the forum)

SnoSeal...Used to waterproof boots, made of beeswax and I believe mineral spirits...I used this from '75-2004

Olive oil...
Crisco
Old Zip...Dixie Gun Works
 
A .495 ball could help. FFFg may help but problem with shallow groove fast twist barrels is stripping the rifling and faster acceleration seems contrary to the right answer.

SIGHTS !

If you have the bead front and u notch rear factory sights, you probably are not getting a consistent sight picture. Change to a TC primitive front sight and square off the rear sight.

TC
 
If this is a percussion gun, it will shoot 3Fg Goex better than 2Fg powder. Hold the barrel vertical so that the bore becomes a " Drop Tube", allowing the 3Fg powder to compact in the back( or bottom) of the barrel. A percussion cap injects fire into the compacted powder, and tests have shown that compacting the powder charge, using 3Fg, gives the lowest Standard Deviation of Velocity. 2Fg powder, having larger granules, does not compact as well, and therefore does not perform as well as using 3Fg. For ultimate accuracy, both granular sizes should be run through a screen to remove fines, and clinkers.

Always seat your PRB to a MARK on your Ramrod. Inconsistent seating depth can cause opened groups.

That means some cleaning needs to be done between shots, so that crud does not build up and make the chamber shorter, moving the PRB forward in the barrel. I wipe a cleaning patch on my tongue, not to get it sloppy with spit, but just to dampen it. Fold it over between your thumb and forefinger, and rub the two sides together to push the spittle into the fabric. Now open the cleaning patch, and put the wet side Down on the muzzle, centered, and run it all the way down the barrel, stopping short of the powder chamber. PUll it back out. Don't pump it.

The Second damp patch- sometimes I can simply flip over the dirty patch and use the other side, goes all the way to the powder chamber, and removes more crud. Then a drying cleaning patch goes down, sits for a couple of seconds, and is pulled back out. That will absorb any extra moisture that remained in the barrel. Now the barrel is read for the next powder charge.

I don't know how well you shoot open sights. If you have not shot open sights a lot, have another shooter, who does seem to shoot open sights well, shoot a couple of rounds off the rest with your gun. That will tell you if YOU are the problem, and not the load components.

If this gun has only fired 20 shots during its entire working life, it may need a few more shots fired through it before it settle in and begins shooting tighter groups. Try putting a business card under the barrel in the barrel mortise, and see if you can easily put the key through the barrel hanger. IF not, take the card out, and the barrel/stock fit is fine. If you can still put the key into the hanger easily, there is up and down play in the barrel/stock mortise, and you should consider bedding at least the tang and back portion of the barrel up to the first keyway. That will stabilize the barrel for better accuracy.

Finally, I am near sighted, and it only gets worse with age. I found that whether shooting open sights on my MLers, or using a peep or scope sight on modern rifles, I eliminate my own aiming errors better if I use a " Sighter" on the target.

A Sighter is a piece of paper, or a business card, stapled, or taped to the target at an angle so that one corner points to the center of my aiming point( bullseye, or 6'oclock hold). It does not matter if the sighter is mounted so that it rises up from under the bullseye, or comes down from above it. At 50 yds, where I do most of my load development, and sighting in, a business card is large enough to be easily seen against a black bullseye. At 100 yds, I take a piece of white typing paper and fold it from one corner to the opposite corner, forming a triangle. I staple that large triangle so that the point is under my bullseye. That allows me to put my front sight post against a very visible "sighter", and slowly raise the front sight up until the top of the triangle is located. Then I squeeze off the shot. Using a sighter has cut my group sizes to 1/3 of what they were with out the sighter.

Putting any black post front sight against a black bullseye is always difficult, if not impossible without stringing your shots. Pistol shooters long ago learned to hold the top of their front sights 1 inch BELOW the bottom of the bullseye, so that they could clearly see the bottom edge of the bullseye, and also see the top edge of their front sight.

The same approach can be used shooting open sights on any rifle or smoothbore. Just adjust your zero to compensate for aiming lower on the target. With an adjustable rear sight, the adjustment is done by raising the rear sight. With fixed rear sights, the adjustment is done by filing down the front sight a bit more.

Good luck. Don't give up, yet. Do actually measure the bore of that barrel, and always measure the Washed fabric for compressed thickness, using a caliper, or micrometer. You want a patch to be about 1/5 times the Depth of a groove in the barrel. Some of the T/C barrels came with deep grooves, and slow twist rifling. Others have a faster rate of twist, and more shallow rifling. You can get a RB to shoot accurately out of any ROT, and any depth of rifling, if you put together the right powder charge, and patch and lube. BUT, YOU HAVE TO KNOW what it is you have, and that always means ignoring what the factory writes on the barrel, and measuring it yourself.

Good luck. Let us know what improvements you achieve, and more details on the gun. :thumbsup:
 
Give fffg a try my TC's all like it (.45,.50 perc. & .50 flint) pillow ticking spit patch,.490 Hornady RB,.440's in my .45. My .45 don't shoot worth a manure if you swab (spit patch) the barrel after every shot, she shoots like a dream with the bore a little dirty. However it does have back sight issues i found this out in our last club match last mouth 4" to the right at 50 yds 3 holes were touching each other the 4th was 1" low & right my 5th shot i used a little Kentucky windage and over adjusted by a couple of inches to the left. So some of those TC's will shoot a little you just need to find the right combo. By the way i shoot 45 grns in my .45 & 65 to 70 in my .50's :v
 
lots of good tips here for you.
3F will likely help it does better in my 50. try to get the sights consistent also.
IMO 2" group at 50 yds is good shooting even off the bench. with a factory barrel and sights.
 
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