Inconsistent loading resistance

[TCMonts]

I believe the theory is that the gasses passing around the ball keep it centered in the bore, I think that could lead to leading. That said I would agree with what was said above about lapping the bore.

 

[Sam squanch]

If it was mine, and it gave a great pattern with shot, I certainly wouldn’t mess with the bore! I’d get another one to shoot round ball….

 

[tenngun]

Yes but this is a smooth bore all the way down. I’d imagine in theory if the bore was perfectly consistent that once the ball/patched cleared the crown the pressure required should be constant all the way in.

My Centermark has a tight area about three inches long about five inches down
I’ve polished with grinding compound
No rust or pitting, and gun shoots good groups.
Maybe something in the boring process is .005 off?or even less
Drove me crazy for a while, but deer or paper nothing seems to mind

 

[Brokennock]

I've got such a hard time wrapping my head around a loose RB bouncing around the bore on the way out being as linear as a patched ball that has 360 degree contact all the way down

That's your head's problem. Accept it and move on.
I have two smoothbore flintlocks, both "20 gauge" both shoot better with a ball sandwiched between wads than they do with patched ball.
The 1st one I got shot well with a patched ball, and I was too new to question anything, the previous owner had given me his load data.
The second one would not shoot a good group with a tightly patched ball. Finally, having read so much about folks shooting well with no patch and just wads,,, I tried a looser patch/ball combo,,,, accuracy improved..... hmmmm
Finally based on that, I tried; powder, thin card, lubed felt wad, ball, two thin cards to hold it all in.... even better. Played with powder charges. Final outcome was sub 4 inch groups at 50 yards. Sometimes sub 3 inch off the bench.
Point is, smoothbores are not rifles. One needs to get out of ones head, through the rifle "rules" away, embrace the black magic that os smoothbore shooting, and shoot what works.... even if it defies "logic" and common "wisdom."

 

[Eterry]

I’ve noticed loading my 58 smooth bore (54 rifle re bored to 58 smooth) that unless I load a looser ball/patch I really struggle in the first maybe 25% of the barrel. And I mean bad. Second 25% seems a bit better and past that the last 50% doesn’t seem to be much of an issue, in comparison.

Is this normal for some reason or is there something I’m missing? I do feel like maybe fouling could play a role after shot #1 but this is happening with a freshly cleaned and oiled bore on the first shot.

And yes I’ve already swapped out PRB for using wads but I’d still like to know what I might be running into here.

A, you might try talking to who bored it smooth.
B, lap the top half of the bore. If you choose to go that route you might drop by the gunsmithing section, get some thoughts on proceeding.
Good luck.

 

[NotDanielBoone]

as the ball/patch is first entering the rifling, it is being compressed/engraved. as it goes on down it starts to polish that engraving on the patch. gets smooth toward the bottom.
one can use a thinner patch to ease the process but that tight patch usually gives better accuracy.

He wrote "smooth bore."

 

[Brokennock]

He wrote "smooth bore."

And he was made aware of it and acknowledged it.

 

[rich pierce]

That's your head's problem. Accept it and move on.
I have two smoothbore flintlocks, both "20 gauge" both shoot better with a ball sandwiched between wads than they do with patched ball.
The 1st one I got shot well with a patched ball, and I was too new to question anything, the previous owner had given me his load data.
The second one would not shoot a good group with a tightly patched ball. Finally, having read so much about folks shooting well with no patch and just wads,,, I tried a looser patch/ball combo,,,, accuracy improved..... hmmmm
Finally based on that, I tried; powder, thin card, lubed felt wad, ball, two thin cards to hold it all in.... even better. Played with powder charges. Final outcome was sub 4 inch groups at 50 yards. Sometimes sub 3 inch off the bench.
Point is, smoothbores are not rifles. One needs to get out of ones head, through the rifle "rules" away, embrace the black magic that os smoothbore shooting, and shoot what works.... even if it defies "logic" and common "wisdom."

What sized ball do you use? Powder charge? Hard wads or cushion over powder? Thanks!

 

[Sooty Scot]

FWIW, I get better accuracy with a wadded ball than with a patched one, in my smoothbore.

 

[Mike in FL]

That's your head's problem. Accept it and move on.
I have two smoothbore flintlocks, both "20 gauge" both shoot better with a ball sandwiched between wads than they do with patched ball.
The 1st one I got shot well with a patched ball, and I was too new to question anything, the previous owner had given me his load data.
The second one would not shoot a good group with a tightly patched ball. Finally, having read so much about folks shooting well with no patch and just wads,,, I tried a looser patch/ball combo,,,, accuracy improved..... hmmmm
Finally based on that, I tried; powder, thin card, lubed felt wad, ball, two thin cards to hold it all in.... even better. Played with powder charges. Final outcome was sub 4 inch groups at 50 yards. Sometimes sub 3 inch off the bench.
Point is, smoothbores are not rifles. One needs to get out of ones head, through the rifle "rules" away, embrace the black magic that os smoothbore shooting, and shoot what works.... even if it defies "logic" and common "wisdom."

 

[Wncman]

I’ve noticed loading my 58 smooth bore (54 rifle re bored to 58 smooth) that unless I load a looser ball/patch I really struggle in the first maybe 25% of the barrel. And I mean bad. Second 25% seems a bit better and past that the last 50% doesn’t seem to be much of an issue, in comparison.

Is this normal for some reason or is there something I’m missing? I do feel like maybe fouling could play a role after shot #1 but this is happening with a freshly cleaned and oiled bore on the first shot.

And yes I’ve already swapped out PRB for using wads but I’d still like to know what I might be running into here.

The reply about the barrel being choked may be somewhat accurate. I have a .45 x 1:66 twist by 44 inches . I’ve have for 30 plus years. I don’t recall who made the barrel. Any way it’s tight as can be about 7 inches from the muzzle. (440 rb .15 thousand patch) LC Rice told me it was possible that it’s choked. It shoot like crazy accurate. My solution was I made a long “short starter “ to get me past that point, then easy with the ram rod from there.

 

[gray fox]

One time I actually had a .58 cal bb muzzle loader that was marked wrong. It was in reality a .54 cal. I switched ball size and ended the problem. Someone later tried driving down a .58 cal ball with a wooden mallet. He never wondered or checked. Sometimes as previously mentioned a slightly smaller caliber ball is used with never an issue again.

Ken.

 

[Brokennock]

What sized ball do you use? Powder charge? Hard wads or cushion over powder? Thanks!

Good question.
My initial successful load was 80 grains 3f, thin "overshot" card, lubed felt wad, .610 ball, 2 more thin overshot cards.
For reasons I won't get into, I came upon a situation where I needed a load with less powder. Turns out 65 grains 3f will produce near equal accuracy results (group size, poa/poi is slightly different) out to 50 yards with the same wad/card combo using the .610 ball, or a .600, or a .595,,,, or a .595 patched with .015 ticking over a thin card. This was with a TVM "Early Virginia" smoothrifle, which I believe has a Rice barrel.
My Centermark Fusil des Chase is a little different. It was my 1st flintlock and 1st smoothbore. The guy I got it from recommended 85 grains powder (I don't remember if he recommend a certain granulation) and a .010 patched .600 ball. It shot well. The gun was put aside for various reasons for a few years when I got the smoothrifle. But, I like the handling of it better. So I started to work on a better load based on what I learned from the smoothrifle. Powder charges are 10 grains heavier on average because the gun is more comfortable to shoot with 2f than 3f. But,,,, it won't tolerate anything stiff/hard between powder and ball. No thin cards or nitro wads
Current hunting load is 75 grains 2f, unused 1/4" felt wad, lubed felt wad, .610 ball, two thin cards.
I am going to try a nitro card over the top of everything instead of the two thin cards because they fit tighter. I had the ball move off the powder during transport this past deer season,,, really don't want that to happen again.

I don't know why it shoots with such versatility with the lower powder charge. Everything else one reads about smoothbores implies more powder is better.
I have noticed that all the guys advocating a load with no wads or anything, just dropping the ball on the powder do have to use a lot more powder than guys shooting with wads or with a patched ball.

 

[2001guns]

getting pretty bad. also i find myself standing in front of my work bench without a clue of what i am doing. usually take a clue from what is in my hand!

 

[2001guns]

getting pretty bad. also i find myself standing in front of my work bench without a clue of what i am doing. usually take a clue from what is in my hand!

You may have Threshold Disease. When you go to another room to fetch something, your brain goes blank when you reach the THRESHOLD. Then you walk back to where you were and you MAY remember what you were going after.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have a Rice with a tight spot at the middle and a Hoyt with a very tight bore and two very loose spots near the breech, it happens.

I coned the Hoyt to make loading it easier, I had to shoot a .526 ball out of it before I coned it, now I can shoot a .535 if I want to but have found it likes a.530 the best.

Both of these barrels will shoot a cloverleaf at 50 yards with the Hoyt being the best.

The Hoyt, I think I will keep it. This is my initial load work up and sight adjustment on the new rifle, I enhanced the last three shots with a sharpie.

 

[waksupi]

With any smooth bore shooting round ball, take them out on a hot summer day. Shoot several light loads, using plain spit for lube and notice where the fouling increases in the bore. Increase the load by five grains at a time, until the fouling in the fore part of the barrel is shooting"clean". That will be the most efficient load for the bore of your gun, and I suspect is the OP's problem.

 

[Mike in FL]

You don't need a patched ball in a smoothbore. Maybe that's the problem.

I was thinking that. If you have right size ball,what is the patch for?

 

[wiscoaster]

I was thinking that. If you have right size ball,what is the patch for?

I was thinking to accomodate a smaller ball?

I haven't shot smoothbore yet, but I have recently acquired one, and plan to try all loading methods.

 

[deerstalkert]

i have known some that use the patch to keep their ball seated on the charge with a smoothbore.
My smoothbore constricts for the last 8-10 inches at the breech and holds the .535 ball tight.
I have read where some will put an over ball wad to keep the ball in place.
my smooth bore experience is limited to a .60 i built and the TC New Englander i reamed out.
jm2cents.