Inconsistent Pattern Problem

[jdixon]

Getting ready for turkey season, this means pulling the scatter gun out from the back of the safe and doing the spring ritual of patterning the gun. In years past I had worked up what I thought was a pretty good load in this gun. I tried that load out this year and thought I could improve upon it. I started dropping the powder charge while upping the shot amount. Shot a couple darn excellent pattern boards doing this - I thought I am on to something. Try it again, the pattern is all over the place What’s up?!?! I am using the exact same charge, wadding everything the same, one pattern will be great, the next you could drive a truck through :shake:

For reference I am using the standard issued Pedersoli SXS in 10 ga., w/ X-full choke tubes, 80 gr. Ffg, 1 hard OP card, a Styrofoam cushion (0.75") that is 3/4" thick, and two thin over shot cards on top of 1 3/4 oz. of #6 shot.

Any ideas on why this is happening?

 

[roundball]

Getting ready for turkey season, this means pulling the scatter gun out from the back of the safe and doing the spring ritual of patterning the gun. In years past I had worked up what I thought was a pretty good load in this gun. I tried that load out this year and thought I could improve upon it. I started dropping the powder charge while upping the shot amount. Shot a couple darn excellent pattern boards doing this - I thought I am on to something. Try it again, the pattern is all over the place What’s up?!?! I am using the exact same charge, wadding everything the same, one pattern will be great, the next you could drive a truck through :shake:

For reference I am using the standard issued Pedersoli SXS in 10 ga., w/ X-full choke tubes, 80 gr. Ffg, 1 hard OP card, a Styrofoam cushion (0.75") that is 3/4" thick, and two thin over shot cards on top of 1 3/4 oz. of #6 shot.

Any ideas on why this is happening?

How are you loading the components?
"Through" that x-full choke tube, or are you unscrewing the tube every time?

If "through" the small choke, it's possible some wad damage is occuring, then they're not getting a full / consistent 'seal' in the bore after they've gone through the choke, allowing some blowby, messing up the pattern, etc.

 

[jdixon]

No, I am taking that tube out everytime. There is no way to get that hard card through that tube, even the thin cards are tough it is so tight.

 

[jdixon]

Here is another variable that I would like to toss out for opinion - swabbing the bore between shots. Unlike my rifles and pistols, I typically do not run the fouling out of the bore on the shotgun. I will usually wait 5 or 7 shots before doing any cleaning. Don't like to do it more often as each time you clean out the bore you run the risk of a mis-fire from junk that got pushed into the nipple channel. I'll get more mis-fires in an afternoon shooting this cap lock shotgun then I will in an entire year with my flintlock rifle. Could fouling cause this much disruption in the shot pattern?

 

[roundball]

Dunno...
To switch gears a little, I'm surprised at only 80grns 2F in a huge volume .10ga bore like that, from a pressure/velocity point of view...I use 80grn 3F (FFFg) in my 20ga.

If you're interested in experimenting, try 80/90grns Goex 3F.

Also, based on articles from some established smoothbore folks, I wonder if there might be intermittent times when that large 3/4" wad is occasionally pushing into the pattern and messiing it up...maybe try 10 shots using only 1/3 (or 1/2) of one of those big wads see what happens.

But of course, only change one thing at a time and shoot enough shots to determine if it helped or hurt...before changing another thing.

 

[jdixon]

Yeah, I know that powder charge seems light in a 10 ga., this gun is rated up to 110 grains but, I never had much luck with those higher charges. The 80 grain load is (in theory) a compromise for more shot. I have to say, with 80 grains, and 1 3/4 oz. of shot the thing still kicks like a mule!

As for that wad, those styrofoam wads barely make it 3 yards down range. They are so feather light I can't believe they are getting into the shot column much at all. I could probably get by with half the thickness, that would be something to try.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Fouling will allow gas to blow by that card wad. Clean between shots, just don't run the jag all the way to the breech. Then you won't be pushing crud into the flashchannel, but living it in the chamber, where much of it will burn up with the next powder charge.

Try using 2 card wads, and skip the styrofoam cusion. Run a bead of oil, or moosemilk, around the edge of the second card wad, to lube the barrel, then pour the shot down on top of that second card. Than an OS card to close the load. The problem using the styrofoam is that its very soft, and will melt with friction, and leave the barrel streaked with plastic. That is hard on the edges of the wads, which you want to seal the bore. If you use plastic anything, you have to use a bore brush regularly to get the crud out of the barrel. Otherwise, your accuracy, and patterns go South. Since you are taking the time to remove that choke tube, try cleaning the bore between each shot. Its obvioius you understand that this sport is not about being in a hurry to shoot anything.

You should consider using Jim Rackham's suggestion of using only OS cards, which are thin enough that you can pinch them and squeeze them sideways through that choke tube, and then turn them around to seat them on the powder. Use 4 or 5 OS cards on top of the powder, with a hole off-center in each OS card. Aligned the holes at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock to that the seal the bore. These lighter wads will fall away from the shot as soon as they leave the barrel and won't disrupt the shot column. That should then give you better and more consistent patterns.

I just checked the diameter for a 10 gauge, and its suppose to be .775, not .75, which is 11 gauge. You may be using card wads that are too small. The card wad has to be the correct size to seal the bore, and theones sold tend to measure a few thousandths over nominal bore size. Sometimes, your bore is so oversized that you have to go to the next larger bore size for those wads. I am using a 19 ga. wad in my 20 ga. fowler, but still use the 20 ga. cushion wads because they load easier, even when soaked in moose milk, and squeezed out before loading down the barrel. However, without that 19 ga. overpowder wad, my velocity is more than 200 fps less than what I should be getting. ( 820 vs. 1030 fps.) So, if you have not done so, start by measuring that bore with a caliper, and find out exactly what that bore diameter is on your 10 gauge. Then order the correct wad sizes. If you don't want to fool around with putting a bead of oil on the card wad, then simply lube a large cleaning patch( use at least the 3 inch flannel cotton square ones) and run the lubed patch down the barrel after you finish loading the OS cards on top of the shot. That will protect the bore from rust in the field, and soften the fouling as the shot travels out the barrel. But do clean the bore between shots. Without some kind of shot cup, you are also going to have to deal with streaks of lead from the pellets rubbing against the barrel. A modern lead solvent is the only thing I have found that will touch the lead. If you lube the barrel as described above, you wil get less lead build up in the barrel, but there will be some at the end of the day.

 

[biliff]

My first instinct is to look to your wad. If your pattern is going from good and solid to blown all over the place, something is either coming apart or not sealing the bore.

 

[roundball]

As for that wad, those styrofoam wads barely make it 3 yards down range. They are so feather light I can't believe they are getting into the shot column much at all.

Well, they probably aren't then...just grasping at straws with you...when somebody says the patterns are varying wildly but everything is identical for every load, it kind of limits the options...one other thing along the lines of consistency, are you using a witness mark on your loading rod, or some sort of thing to ensure you're seating everything with a consistent amount of pressure each time?

 

[jdixon]

Interesting idea using on the OS cards - I can see where that would work. With 7 OS cards in the load it ought to look like a ticker tape parade when you touch it off.

The hard and OS cards I am using are 10 ga. Circle Fly, they are working fine. Though the hard cards are hanging up around the "collar" at the bottom of the choke tube threading at times. I have been lubing these with Mink Oil and slipping them through there but, they don't always walk through there so easy.

It is the styrofoam wad that I am using that mics @ .75", when fired this wad compresses to bore diameter. I lube the sides of these wads but, they probably are leaving some residue behind anyway.

That first load you described, two over powder hard cards, no cushion :shocked2: and then OS cards? Don't these hard cards chew up the bottom of the shot column as they slam into it? - heck if it works I don't care!

The hard and OS cards I am using are 10 ga. Circle Fly, they are working fine. Though the hard cards are hanging up around the "collar" at the bottom of the choke tube threading at times. I have been lubing these with Mink Oil and slipping them through there but, they don't always walk through there so easy.

It is the styrofoam wad that I am using that mics @ .75", when fired this wad compresses to bore diameter. I lube the sides of these wads but, they probably are leaving some residue behind anyway.

That first load you described, two over powder hard cards, no cushion :shocked2: and then OS cards? Don't these hard cards chew up the bottom of the shot column as they slam into it?

To clean that thing up I have been using Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine, it seems to get the lead out, if it is real bad, regular Butch's Bore Shine takles it. Speaking of cleaning the gun - I better head out to the barn and take care of that.

 

[jdixon]

Yes, I have been getting consistent seating of all of the componets. My old marks have worn off. I have been waiting until I get settled on a load to mark it off again. I am certain that I am getting everything seated however.

 

[fw707]

J.R.,
I've had good luck with a single thick card wad over the powder and a single overshot card.
I've got a tight-choked Colerain barrel, and I split the overpowder wad into halves and load them 1/2 at a time because they won't start down the barrel unsplit.
If you bend the halves around the contour of the barrel first they start easier, and you might be able to load without removing the tubes.
My shotgun experience is pretty limited, but it works for me.

 

[paulvallandigham]

My experience using both 1/8" thick overpowder( OP) wads and cushion wads is that it has been the cushion wads that follow the shot string, particularly when I soak them in moose milk before loading. That makes them way too heavy, and they follow the shot out to just short of 25 yards! The OP cards drop within the first 5 yards. The OS card drop off in the first 3-6 feet!

I don't see the confetti you worry about shooting the OS cards only. Perhaps because they drop out so quickly, I don't see them in the smoke. But, if you follow Iron Jim Rackham's advice, and punch or poke a hole with an awl off center, and then load the OS cards in the barrel with those holes aligned so they don't line with the next hole, they should fall out of the pattern quickly.

As to the 2 OP card load I suggested, if you see any evidence of either card following the shot for more than 5 yards, relace the second OP card with an OS card instead, and see how that works. For years, I have used an OS card on top of my cusion wad, in order to have a hard, smooth surface pushing the column of shot, and to have an absolutely square-to-the-bore wad behind the shot so that the shot column leaves the muzzle the same shot after shot. I have watched other shooters load styrofoam cushion wads in their guns, but the only ones that seem to get consistency are the guys who put pressure on the wad to not only seat it, but to make it compress and push out against the barrel, so that this is not something that is done with the shot pushing against the cushion wad and gravity and other forces affecting how square to the bore that cushion wad will be. Being light in weight, those styrofoam cushion wads do fall awy very quickly. I just don't know how necessary they are to getting good patterns. Iron Jim Rackham has me very interested in trying his system. If I lube the bores after seating the OS cards, I don't need a lubed cushion wad. Because I clean after each shot, I can deal with any crud ring that tries to develop at the chamber.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I think Paul has given you good advice. I shoot a 12 gauge gun, and posted a pattern about a week ago on this forum. I use 4 overshot cards on top of the powder, and 2 overshot cards on the shot as described by Paul.

This isn't a very scientific survey, but I've yet to encounter a muzzleloading gun that doesn't shoot better patterns using only overshot cards.

Try it and see if your patterns improve.

 

[jdixon]

Jim:
I am intrigued by the OS card shot column, thanks for the suggestion. I plan on trying this out this week (season starts Saturday here!!) May adjust my powder to shot ratio (presently using 1.3:1 by volume shot to powder) some to compensate for the lighter cards. I'll try to post some photos of the results.

 

[ffffg]

10 gauge is a tough gun to get working right with the full choke complicating things.. your getting blowby which is made worse or caused by fouling and or leading.. I dont think your wads are tipping with that long of column using that much shot... IF, and this is IF your nitro cards are proper size aprox .020-.030 inch over bore diamater you can load like this.. Im not sure what exactly what the proper amount of oversize of nitro card is anymore.... (I have shot several perfect bp rounds with 10 guage in competition,) ... my load for that was relatively complicated and may not be nessesarry for what your doing. we can go into it if you need to.. my problem was inconsistent roundness of nitro cards and inconsitent diameter... card Punches vary in the mfg proccess, and all it takes one bad card and your run is ruined.. so measure them if its important.. see what works best in your gun... ........ load powder, then two nitro cards, (bend them very slightly and criss cross the folds as you go) by the choke. do not push them by the choke on[url] edge.....slide[/url] them down and pack...then load one or two wool 1/4 inch thick felt wads soaked in melted tc lube... they will lube the gun barrel best and the end of the bore will be shiny after each shot if your using enough lube.. (make the lubed wool felt wads by soaking, and then lightly squeeze excess lube out of the felt wad by putting it between two dry wool wads ready to be soaked...)(use wool felt for choked guns, fiber wads for cylinder bore or jug choked guns).. then shot and then over shot card.. if you want best results lightly re tamp the over shot card before you shoot the second barrel, if you have one... do not pack the shot.. pack the over nitro cards and wads, not the shot and over shot card.. too much shot can caouse blow by, no matter what you do in relation to gauge and burning properties of the powder.....if you need to take two shots when hunting use two over shot cards, with the punched edges up towards the muzzel....... Leading will definitly ruin patterns.. you will need to keep up lead removal after each outing.. you will know if you have leading by running a tight patch down the barrel with tc lube on it, if it comes out grey its got leading... clean leading with bronze brush and hoppies old style numer 9 nitro solvent.. its alot easier to use knickel plated shot, and it patterns better.. you can buy knickel plated shot from ballistic products..... I used to use a new bronze brush with each cleaning, maybe two cleanings , but in 10 guage you loose scrub power real fast becouse the bristles are longer..... .dave