India Made Firearms

[FlinterNick]

No one is belittling the person. It's the guns many of us dont like. I've said this before, I don't fault anyone's choice if that's all they can afford. That said, I still don't have to like the firearm they choose. In my opinion, if you can afford to buy an India made gun, then with a little more saving, you could probably afford a better quality gun.

Some people just cop out their poor choice in gun, with inability to afford a better one. It's all in how much and how long a person is willing to save up for something.

The logic behind buying an Indian gun because its affordable only really holds truths if you do nothing to it, and shoot it as is.

otherwise many folks buy and Indian made musket and then go looking for someone to defarb it for another 500-700$, which adds almost no value to the musket once its known that its Indian made.

A fella in my old group desperately wanted a baker rifle but complained he couldn’t afford a rifle shoppe kit, purchased an Indian made baker rifle from Middlesex and contracted Ed Rayl to make a drop in barrel for $500. Then the lock had many issues that required customized corrections, hand made springs and correction of poor geometry (screws needed to be relocated) and the frizzen needed to be welded and redrilled and the cock needed to be heated and bent….. $400 of work.

He got his baker with a very ugly teak stock after spending nearly $1,500 for a Baker rifle that was just shy of a much nicer custom baker rifle.

At the end of all this, he parted ways with the Indian baker took the loss and ordered an 1803 kit from Pecatonica.

 

[trettie]

I got a couple mainsprings for my pedersoli bess from track. They were like $20. After the original shattered from evaporust, I got the others. My gunsmith fitted it for a good price and I have a spare. Still, other pedersoli posts are stupid priced.

I would note that Loyalist Arms offers a 6-month warranty on all moving parts and a 1-year warranty on springs.

 

[Rudyard]

Allways had good feed from Loyalist Arms known them years as a diligent firm to deal with . Rudyard

 

[ronaldrothb49]

It's not that. Many folks cannot afford custom stuff. Affordable guns and kits got a lot of guys into the hobby.

When I started shooting in the 70's I couldn't afford to pay for someone to make me a custom gun either but I wasn't going to waste what money I had on a bottom of the barrel bargain. I listened to people who had experience and spent a little more time saving and bought one of the best kits available put it together and started shooting. Then I started saving for my next gun buying a part or two as I could then when had every thing I built my 2nd rifle. It was ugly but it was built to fit me something you are never going to get buying factory made guns. That is a pattern I have repeated over 45 years. I still don't have the money to buy a custom rifle but I do have the quality parts to build 5 rifles and 2 pistols in my workshop. I have seen too many posts of people who have bought these bottom of the barrel bargains now looking to spend $250 for a lock that will work, $200 for a period correct stock, new triggers etc. Well in my opinion you didn't get a bargain you got a money pit. You would have been much better off taking a little more time to save the money to get something better because you will probably spend more trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear or get discouraged and throw the towel in and give up. As I said before you get what you pay for.

 

[FlinterNick]

Allways had good feed from Loyalist Arms known them years as a diligent firm to deal with . Rudyard

They distribute a good product. Some of their rosewood stocks are very nice too but very difficult to finish. I helped a friend finish a 1728 Charleville. The stock without the parts weighed almost 7lbs (originals were less than 5lbs. We had to steam the stock and wipe it over and over with hot water to open up the grain to take various coats of stain to mimic french walnut, we were not successful and ended up with a very dark stock that looked more like high figured blotchy beech.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Somebody said at the beginning of the thread they fill a niche which they do and as long as they do that people will continue to buy them and be satisfied with the amount of money they spent and the function of the item others will save up thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and get something of much higher quality and then belittle those of us who can't afford

I own a few handmade rifles that were not cheap when I bought them years ago and one kit I built an orig Lyman GPR. I like the GPR every bit as much as the others. It is not always about money. The cycle comes and goes, when some years you have a few extra bucks$$ and some years you don't. There are people who hunt, target shoot what ever, every day of the week with a mid/lower price "unmentionable" firearm and get as much enjoyment doing it as those with the $$$big buck firearms! My grandfather was a PH and hunted all four Continents, using two rifles, pre 64 Winchesters in 06 & 300 H&H. I'm talking 25 years or more hunting in the roughest terrain & weather you can imagine and the firearms showed it, but ehy were well maintained and functional, just not "pretty"! I asked him once when he was going to get a new rifle, he looked at me and said, "what for"?, end of discussion! He just did not see the need to have a new rifle when the ones he had & trusted still worked fine!

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I think that some people just can't fathom spending $1500 -$2000 on a high end kit or built rifle. It is what it is. I used to have Mercedes, Benz, several Porsches. Now i drive a Toyota and a Hyundai, I end up at the same places! Some people get to a point in life where the glitz and prestige just does not matter any more. Hand made firearms are great if that is what you want, but I have never purchased a firearm of any kind and then sent it to a Gunsmith to work on and spend more on the work then the cost of the firearm? I also will not take a $$$ firearm and drag it through the woods, weather etc, it is just not me, so it would be a safe queen, which is a total waste in my eyes. There is a place for lower end firearms, just not for everyone, but if you get one and it works well (Lyman GPR), then that is all that matters. That is the real caveat in my mind, it must work! Forget perfect architecture, historical markings, correct era lock etc. Doesn't matter, but it must work, or you have just wasted your money(IMHO)

 

[Howard Pippin]

It's not that. Many folks cannot afford custom stuff. Affordable guns and kits got a lot of guys into the hobby.

I own a few muzzleloaders, even some pistols and I'm happy with them, but none of them approach the custom level of pricing. I don't own one of those custom Handmade high dollar machines for the same reason I don't own a Weatherby Magnum Rifle or a one of a kind car. I guess I'm not much impressed by what the Joneses have or even the Smiths, but I've worked hard my entire life and to put that kind of dollars into a dream doesn't turn me on, When I still remember that I was shooting does to turn into hamburger to feed a family while I was working 65 hours a week to keep a house warm, bills paid and bread on the table. What I have I can make work, probably about the same way a mountain man made his work, and if it needed a little tweaking he tweaked it. He never forgot that his rifle was a tool and not a show toy. I've considered mine the same way. Like the tools I used in my trades, common sense dictated that you took care of them. Why wouldn't a firearm be considered the same thing. Especially to a man that depended on it to defend his life. But You're absolutely right, affordable rifles and kits got me into a hobby that is no greater or smaller than other hobbies I have, and I thoroughly have enjoyed it. They've even put a little meat on the table.
Squint

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Shooting is a 'hobby" for most people not a livelihood. Like any hobby, Cars, Motorcycles, Stamps ,Coins, Boating, etc etc, you can do it modestly or you can spend till the sun don't shine! It is what it is. There was a time when I spent like a China Sea sailor on leave, but those days are long gone, and i am just as happy now as I was then, maybe more so. I have realized that when I am gone, no one is going to care about what "junk" i have collected along the way. It will get sold off, and in 6 months if someone remembers your name, you'll be lucky (IMHO)

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I don’t care much about a gun’s pedigree…is it functionally reliable, is it an nice field carry, is it accurate? Those are my chief concerns.

 

[manbat]

Indian guns fit a lesser quality and functional option for the folks that care most about the shooting experience and lesser cost. Pedersoli and the like are the middle ground with increased quality, increased functional consistency, and quality at a higher cost and custom guns fill the higher quality and cost category.

When I buy guns I care about the function, fit and finish. There is a pride of ownership that comes from owning a quality firearm and I want it to work, feel, and look right. In the BP world, the middle ground satisfies my requirements as I can't get past the quality, fit and finish, look, and feel of the Indian guns - the whole pride of ownership equation is not there for me. I'd rather not buy or save longer. On the custom side, I just don't see a value-to-cost equation that makes sense to me. Others will obviously think differently.

 

[sturmkatze]

This is true to an extent, however when you start collecting Indian made arms and own 3-5 patterns of brown Bess’s, that logic is kind of out the window.

If you’re going to be a serious collector or kit builder, custom made arms and kits are the way to go.

Not everyone is a collector. Some are shooters. Some just burn blanks. Some like to hold it. You are assuming.

 

[sturmkatze]

No one is belittling the person. It's the guns many of us dont like. I've said this before, I don't fault anyone's choice if that's all they can afford. That said, I still don't have to like the firearm they choose. In my opinion, if you can afford to buy an India made gun, then with a little more saving, you could probably afford a better quality gun.

Some people just cop out their poor choice in gun, with inability to afford a better one. It's all in how much and how long a person is willing to save up for something.

Who are you to deciding what people need or should buy? Maybe they have a family? Maybe it's all they can afford, but then elitests tell them they have to decide betwen braces and a gun. Get real. Buy what's right for you and don't try and shame people because they don't do what you approve of.

 

[sturmkatze]

Some Kentucky and Pennsylvania Rifles are works of art, seeing one sell for prices upwards near 5-7k is not a surprise to me, especailly if it was made by an original period gunsmith.

They are. But I'm not about to take something like that into the woods.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

They are. But I'm not about to take something like that into the woods.

That kind of firearm is useless to me. Too nice to actually use it! Can you imagine hunting with it , tripping and falling down the rock strew hillside! LOL, No way! There is a reason lesser firearms are used, and its not always about money. Sometimes it is just good ole common sense.

 

[KIt]

I am not interested in "fancy" rifles with lots of carvings and embellinshments. My only focus is on accuracy and reliability, especially when it comes to flintlocks. If you buy a lower end Spanish or Italian rifle and than install a "replacement" flint lock on the rifle to make it more "reliable", it appears that you are at or close to a quality rifle ( $1,100 tp 1,600). Thompson Center, Lyman, CVA are all out of business in terms of traditional BP guns. So we are basically limited to Kibler, building a rifle from parts, custom guns or used guns. Am I missing anything?

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I am not interested in "fancy" rifles with lots of carvings and embellinshments. My only focus is on accuracy and reliability, especially when it comes to flintlocks. If you buy a lower end Spanish or Italian rifle and than install a "replacement" flint lock on the rifle to make it more "reliable", it appears that you are at or close to a quality rifle ( $1,100 tp 1,600). Thompson Center, Lyman, CVA are all out of business in terms of traditional BP guns. So we are basically limited to Kibler, building a rifle from parts, custom guns or used guns. Am I missing anything?

There may be a fwe makes I am not familiar with ,but basically you said, come up with $1200 bucks minimum or go home. That is probably fairly accurate and will keep a lot of people from shooting BP (IMHO)