India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[earlwb]

That is a fascinating story about that narrow spot in the barrel. But mine isn’t loaded you can push the rod all the way past it. You just don’t notice it unless you have a patch on the rod. But that may be what is there on mine though. It has been a long time since I actually looked at it. Thus the narrow spot may actually be closer to the breech end. The barrel is so long that my memory could be way off on it.

With a chamber design like that has me wondering what the powder charge was that they used with it. If I remember right their black powder wasn’t as good as Europe etc were using. It was very slow burning and very dirty. So maybe they could have an air gap to the bullet or shot then. But I assume you would not have a gap as that could blow up the gun on you. But maybe that is a false assumption with this type of gun.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Its always been a mystery to me, how these barrels got so eaten up on the inside.
Lying on the ground in a wet cellar possibly, but the outsides are usually decent.

 

[Sam squanch]

They must have used pyrodex ……

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

These India pattern matchlocks seem to be so common

 

[rickystl]

Hacksaw? Wire EDM bro, we want it EXACT cut-away!

Hi Flint

No, I was just mentioning cutting the barrel in two and sending you the rear 14". Would be much easier - and cheaper - than sending you the whole 65". But agreed, we want a precision cut length wise in the 14" section. I'll leave you with that task using your resource. Does this make sense ?

Rick

 

[rickystl]

That is a fascinating story about that narrow spot in the barrel. But mine isn’t loaded you can push the rod all the way past it. You just don’t notice it unless you have a patch on the rod. But that may be what is there on mine though. It has been a long time since I actually looked at it. Thus the narrow spot may actually be closer to the breech end. The barrel is so long that my memory could be way off on it.

With a chamber design like that has me wondering what the powder charge was that they used with it. If I remember right their black powder wasn’t as good as Europe etc were using. It was very slow burning and very dirty. So maybe they could have an air gap to the bullet or shot then. But I assume you would not have a gap as that could blow up the gun on you. But maybe that is a false assumption with this type of gun.

Hi Earl

The lesser grade of powder is one theory. I recall reading that the quality of black powder made by the locals was something akin to powder made during the hand gonne period. LOL If the powder was compressed too tight, it would not ignite reliably. Thus the air gap between the powder and ball to allow more oxygen.
Of course today we would consider this more of a bore obstruction. If you run an iron rod through the barrel it would travel through the narrow section into the powder chamber. But if you ran a wood dowel that's approximately bore size it would not travel past the beginning of the narrow section. That narrow section is "just" small enough to not let a correct size ball travel past it. The narrow section starts to taper larger as it enters the yet still large powder chamber. This is as I remember with the barrel of my other Torador before sending it to Bobby Hoyt to be re-worked. It was very much the same as the sketch-photo I posted above.

I remember Bobby calling me ref the breech asking me what the @#$%^&* is this ? LOL So I explained the theory. So Bobby, being the genius muzzle loading barrel smith he is, made a steel sleeve for the breech area that was carefully mated to the new steel liner in the bore. So now it became a typical smooth cylinder bore like any other musket.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Its always been a mystery to me, how these barrels got so eaten up on the inside.
Lying on the ground in a wet cellar possibly, but the outsides are usually decent.

I've noticed, like this wall gun, that many of the barrels outside have this old, hard, yellow colored grease. I remember it came off fairly easy, but can't remember what I used to clean it.
Yes, the bores are a mystery to me also. They're some of the worst I've ever seen. It's as if they were never cleaned after firing. Maybe they were loaded and fired till they couldn't be loaded any more and either discarded or sent back to the barrel makers for refurbishing (?) Don't know.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

That yellow grease sounds like ghee to me Rick. I even wondered if confiscated guns (after the Mutiny) had had acid or something nasty tipped down the barrels. Its unlikely but why so hard to find a decent bore ? Most neglected and found in shed type musket barrels are easy to clean compared to these, The only other thought is raw sulphur being used in crude powder? Like match heads? but this would not be as consistent ; This damage appears from one end of India to the other..

 

[TobJohn]

That yellow grease sounds like ghee to me Rick. I even wondered if confiscated guns (after the Mutiny) had had acid or something nasty tipped down the barrels. Its unlikely but why so hard to find a decent bore ? Most neglected and found in shed type musket barrels are easy to clean compared to these, The only other thought is raw sulphur being used in crude powder? Like match heads? but this would not be as consistent ; This damage appears from one end of India to the other..

Do similarly humid countries that used matchlocks not suffer from this problem?

 

[Sam squanch]

You don’t think…. They used….. urine to clean the barrels!?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Tob,
India goes from arid to steamy wet, but the damage is consistent it appears.
It would be very interesting to see the bores of some of the guns taken back to England as souvenires after the mutiny, to see if they retained a good bore or not.
The bores of the barrels from Oman are rough usually, but noit As rough as many from India.
I do not know about Persian barrels .

 

[Sam squanch]

Maybe a sample of some period black powder from India would provide the answer. Don’t know how to get one though. Locate someone with a matchlock with a load in the barrel?

 

[TobJohn]

Tob,
India goes from arid to steamy wet, but the damage is consistent it appears.
It would be very interesting to see the bores of some of the guns taken back to England as souvenires after the mutiny, to see if they retained a good bore or not.
The bores of the barrels from Oman are rough usually, but noit As rough as many from India.
I do not know about Persian barrels .

Huh interesting. My theory was particularly corrosive powder+not cleaning+ high humidity. I wonder if the Royal Armouries have any pre mutiny examples. They are pretty good about recording when and where they acquired pieces.

*Here we go: Collections Online
The photo that shows a bit of the muzzle interior does look pretty gross.

 

[TobJohn]

Maybe a sample of some period black powder from India would provide the answer. Don’t know how to get one though. Locate someone with a matchlock with a load in the barrel?

I think Rick actually does have that, in a previous post

 

[rickystl]

That yellow grease sounds like ghee to me Rick. I even wondered if confiscated guns (after the Mutiny) had had acid or something nasty tipped down the barrels. Its unlikely but why so hard to find a decent bore ? Most neglected and found in shed type musket barrels are easy to clean compared to these, The only other thought is raw sulphur being used in crude powder? Like match heads? but this would not be as consistent ; This damage appears from one end of India to the other..

"This damage appears from one end of India to the other.."

Agreed. Every barrel I've seen has the same, heavy corrosion from the muzzle to the breach. In years past, while at the Antique Arms Show in Baltimore and I would come across a Torador, I would ask permission to take a quick look in the muzzle end with a bore light. ALL had the same consistent heavy corrosion.
Here is the video I posted on another Thread. They used a bore camera going from the muzzle to the beginning of the narrow section. Note the heavy corrosion. As Pukka mentions, they all look just like this, if not worse. It would be one thing if a parcel of barrels looked this way. But ALL of them ? Has to be something in the mix of the locally made powder.



Rick

 

[rickystl]

You don’t think…. They used….. urine to clean the barrels!?

LOL. Doesn't appear the barrels were ever cleaned. I've also never seen one of the original iron ramrods with a hole/slot or otherwise to attach a cleaning cloth/tow.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I think Rick actually does have that, in a previous post

Hi Tob

That sample was from an Albanian Tanchika musket that still had a load in the barrel. It was interesting the powder looked more like cake flour than the cornmeal we are more familiar with. I took a pinch of the powder and lit it with a match. It was still good.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi Tob

That sample was from an Albanian Tanchika musket that still had a load in the barrel. It was interesting the powder looked more like cake flour than the cornmeal we are more familiar with. I took a pinch of the powder and lit it with a match. It was still good.

Rick

Oh yes, I remember that now. Fascinating powder stays good so long.

 

[rickystl]

Maybe after I cut the barrel in two and Flint62 does the splice down the middle of the breech area, we will find more evidence. Maybe scrape some corrosion from the bore and have it analyzed ?

So now, onward to take the barrel off the stock. Maybe some markings on the bottom of the barrel ? But based on others, I don't expect to find any.

Rick

 

[Sam squanch]

I can picture some huckster trying to persuade the sultan or whoever to try his new improved black powder mixture. “ You get MORE shots per pound, and it’s safer to store! It won’t harm the barrel a bit!”