India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[Rudyard]

The air gap is not going to contribute any significant amount of oxygen but it may allow the serpentine powder to open up to allow the deflagration front to advance more rapidly.

But I am of the opinion that the aim was to have a thicker breech to contain an adiabatic deflagration, closer to an actual explosion. In this the deflagration front moves slowly through the compacted serpentine powder and the pressure of the whole chamber raises the temperature such that the whole charge is ignited almost at once just by the temperature caused by the pressure rise.

I note Europeans commenting that the locals would almost fill the chamber whatever the strength of the powder, possibly as they had learned not to allow a large air gap in the chamber.

Dear Old Dog , Never been convinced airgaps where desirable . But then the jillions of Dreyss & Chassepots have them built it . Indian notions of adding more stronger powders was probably their ingrained thinking based on weaker local powders & not exposed to English powders. Measurable in deeper bruised shoulders but bad news for poor Tiger either way
.And Forsythe wasn't spareing with his loads . I once saw in a collection the Ivory hilted knife a prize from the matches at ' Niee Tal ' If He was involved with, Not sure but think Niee meaning NO & the Tal might mean' worry's ' Thus if my guess is right A good gathering of gentlemen like him self out of the grind & heat of the Raj . A bit like Pukka's shoot in Alberta ! Only his suffers neither
.Cheers Rudyard

 

[RAEDWALD]

Dear Old Dog , Never been convinced airgaps where desirable
.Cheers Rudyard

OT and unmentionable but, for a full service load, I just use air as a filler in my Martini Henry but I leave now before I am both chastised and castigated by the moderators. But not before noting that both the Swiss and Austro Hungarians armies deliberately kept a small air gap on their muzzle loading rifles.

 

[Billy-by-gosh]

... both the Swiss and Austro Hungarians armies deliberately kept a small air gap on their muzzle loading rifles.

Yes. I have also loaded using a small air gap (which I filled using a Kapok puff to hold the powder against the flash hole).

 

[rickystl]

Rudyard said: "Indian notions of adding more stronger powders was probably their ingrained thinking based on weaker local powders & not exposed to English powders."

Hi Rudyard. That seems to be the overall current consensus. One of the reasons I want to take some rust scrapings to have it chemically analyzed is to see if there is evidence of something additional beyond what we would normally expect. Maybe proving or not the one possible theory that Pukka mentioned about adding something acidic into the bore after the guns were captured so they couldn't be used again. Hard to believe, but the bores on "most" Toradors look this bad. We shall see. Also, while at it, maybe see if they can trace the barrel iron to an approximate age. Depends on cost to do both.

Over the many years, I've had 3 original period smooth bore barrels that I bought that still had a period load in the barrel. Two of the barrels were loaded: powder, ball, and tow on top. The other barrel was loaded: Powder, tow, ball, and more tow on top. It seems this was a typical way of loading a smooth bore (non-military) during much of history whether North America, Europe, or the East. Seems they didn't use a greased patch between the powder and ball many use today (?) At least for smooth bores. Just speculating.

Air Gap: It would be interesting to take two identical smooth bores, and load one with a small air gap and the other without, and test the velocity of both - with today's black powder.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard said: "Indian notions of adding more stronger powders was probably their ingrained thinking based on weaker local powders & not exposed to English powders."

Hi Rudyard. That seems to be the overall current consensus. One of the reasons I want to take some rust scrapings to have it chemically analyzed is to see if there is evidence of something additional beyond what we would normally expect. Maybe proving or not the one possible theory that Pukka mentioned about adding something acidic into the bore after the guns were captured so they couldn't be used again. Hard to believe, but the bores on "most" Toradors look this bad. We shall see. Also, while at it, maybe see if they can trace the barrel iron to an approximate age. Depends on cost to do both.

Over the many years, I've had 3 original period smooth bore barrels that I bought that still had a period load in the barrel. Two of the barrels were loaded: powder, ball, and tow on top. The other barrel was loaded: Powder, tow, ball, and more tow on top. It seems this was a typical way of loading a smooth bore (non-military) during much of history whether North America, Europe, or the East. Seems they didn't use a greased patch between the powder and ball many use today (?) At least for smooth bores. Just speculating.

Air Gap: It would be interesting to take two identical smooth bores, and load one with a small air gap and the other without, and test the velocity of both - with today's black powder.

Rick

Well it would be quite' do able'. you could use the same barrel and a chronograph .By the nature of muzzle loading by its ram rod it might be a trick to seat the loose one.?. No not really . William Wellington Greener in his book' The Gun' 1910 writes of 'detonation' in express rifles & illustrates one burst .But this must be a rare phenomenon .
Interesting account of old recovered loads with no greased patched ball . The greased patched ball goes back beyond Wheellock rifle days yet I recall John Nigel George writing of not finding grease in the' tool boxes 'most had . I like to add a deep useful' Tool box' but never kept grease in one. Plenty of rifles Did have patch boxes presumably For greased patches My old restored Baker Rifle has the patch & tool box provision but there's no sign of grease doesn't mean none was in it but it is an early pattern that got altered for the socket B net post Waterloo so might been in store then used up later .All part of the great mystery of muzzle loading .
Rudyard's take on the subject

 

[rickystl]

After the barrel of this wall gun was cut in two halves, I was expecting to see a breech chamber that looked pear shaped. Similar to what they briefly showed on the YouTube video. But instead, we see a powder chamber that is slightly more narrow than nominal bore size, but long and straight. Hmmmm. Maybe they manufactured the barrels for their wall-type guns differently ? Or maybe this is just one barrel maker's variation to accomplish the same thing. In either case, there was a definite, intentional design to keep the ball/projectile from being compacted on top of the powder.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
For what it's worth, I see this wall gun breeching as being the exception to the rule.
I have come across straight bored barrels, but by far the majority have had a restriction, then a cavernous chamber behind it.
These seem by far the most common.
I may go so far as to say I think the breech of this wall gun looks a bit unsound mechanically, as the 'tube' insert does not seem a particularly tight fit, going by the rust between it and the bore proper.
The question is though, How common was this set -up, and how do we find out without X-ray?
Yes, we know when we have a barrel with the usual cavernous opening behind, so this question only applies to those with a smaller diameter breeching.
Hmmmm!

 

[rickystl]

Hi Pukka

Thanks for your response. I completely agree with you ref these barrels. The vast majority that I've seen over the years have had the swollen breach with the restriction and the larger powder chamber. What I have noticed in the past, is the occasional barrel that is typical cylinder bore, show up on guns that can be confirmed to have come from South India. I've seen 4-5 of these over the many years. In fact, my combination flintlock/matchlock musket is from the Coorg Region in the South. And it is also typical cylinder bore. We know there were various cultural differences between the North/Central and the South. So, I guess it should not be too surprising that there were some differences in gun building techniques between the two.
The breech of this wall gun is a first for me. It is difficult to tell whether the restriction/narrow chamber is part of the breech plug assembly or was made with the bore and mandrel. The area is too chewed-up to be sure. Other restricted barrels show the restriction was made during the barrel making process. But this wall gun restriction does indeed appear to have been part of the breech plug assembly. I would think that would be the weaker of the two designs (?) Don't know.
How common was this set-up for barrels ? Good question. I have no idea. LOL First one I've encountered - or even read about. It was a total surprise to me. The narrow chamber seems to be taking the idea of the original hand-gonnes of that period. The only common theme is that in both designs, they wanted a restriction. My only guess for now, is that large or small chamber was the difference in barrel makers theories.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Rick,
For what it's worth, I see this wall gun breeching as being the exception to the rule.
I have come across straight bored barrels, but by far the majority have had a restriction, then a cavernous chamber behind it.
These seem by far the most common.
I may go so far as to say I think the breech of this wall gun looks a bit unsound mechanically, as the 'tube' insert does not seem a particularly tight fit, going by the rust between it and the bore proper.
The question is though, How common was this set -up, and how do we find out without X-ray?
Yes, we know when we have a barrel with the usual cavernous opening behind, so this question only applies to those with a smaller diameter breeching.
Hmmmm!

Yes the cut up barrel is an odd bod the one, Same source I checked out & fired had the opened up anti chamber breach it was smooth enough to shoot & clean nothing like the rough state of the one cut up. 'Bucks County' shot it too
.Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Pukka

Thanks for your response. I completely agree with you ref these barrels. The vast majority that I've seen over the years have had the swollen breach with the restriction and the larger powder chamber. What I have noticed in the past, is the occasional barrel that is typical cylinder bore, show up on guns that can be confirmed to have come from South India. I've seen 4-5 of these over the many years. In fact, my combination flintlock/matchlock musket is from the Coorg Region in the South. And it is also typical cylinder bore. We know there were various cultural differences between the North/Central and the South. So, I guess it should not be too surprising that there were some differences in gun building techniques between the two.
The breech of this wall gun is a first for me. It is difficult to tell whether the restriction/narrow chamber is part of the breech plug assembly or was made with the bore and mandrel. The area is too chewed-up to be sure. Other restricted barrels show the restriction was made during the barrel making process. But this wall gun restriction does indeed appear to have been part of the breech plug assembly. I would think that would be the weaker of the two designs (?) Don't know.
How common was this set-up for barrels ? Good question. I have no idea. LOL First one I've encountered - or even read about. It was a total surprise to me. The narrow chamber seems to be taking the idea of the original hand-gonnes of that period. The only common theme is that in both designs, they wanted a restriction. My only guess for now, is that large or small chamber was the difference in barrel makers theories.

Rick

I recently stocked up in the local style a barrel seemingly never sold or used for a Indian Matchlock , its just unrestricted bore but still a forged breach . I stocked it Omani style to use up a nice bit of curly wood ide muffed up cutting out a blank so lessened the loss you might say. I made a one piece plus light spring Omani Style split match holder/ trigger just the one pin it turns on never shot it as yet the other original in the pic ile send later, I shot that , Nice Damascus barrel .Some how its a joy to use these beat up old relics brings them alive and hopefully a credit to their makers .
In Rudyards weird gun makers view . R

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

You just reminded me. I have one of those fancy, fluted barrels used on Omani matchlocks. (I believe Pukka has one or more also) I have never got around to cleaning the bore, and using a bore camera to try and study the bore of these barrels also. These barrels were supposedly also made in sections over a mandrel, and have a forged breech. I'll add this to my list of to-do's.

One BIG surprise that we learned from cutting up the wall gun barrel - as Flint62 advised above - is how tough the Damascus iron was. It seems after many decades of making these barrels the locals eventually formulated a barrel making technique that produced an exceptionally strong form of Damascus iron for their gun barrels. And this, while still using privative methods at the time. Amazing.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I don’t think of them as being Damascus forged as in ‘Layers’, as the method described in Lord Egerton’s book is akin to long ‘straws’ of metal aligned side-by-side and forge welded around a mandrel.

Spiral-wrapped that barrel certainly not be … she was some damn TOUGH steel!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Two or three things if I may;
Rick,
You said you have seen more or less cylinder bores from the south with no anti-chamber.
This is good to know, but must add that one of mine comes from Rajasthan, and Jaipur in in particular.
It is a twist barrel like we expect, and ornamented with various trisula forms.
It would be interesting to know if all these Jaipur pieces ornamented with the trisula, have the same breeching.

Tough iron;
Most twisted barrels, (not true 'Damascus but twisted around a mandrel and showing a spiral effect) are pretty soft.
I am wondering, if it was that hard baked rust that caused the trouble cutting it?
Rust will wear out saw teeth Very fast!
It would be good Flint, if you could cut into a scrap piece from the rust free outside, and see if the effect on the saw was the same.
It Might be a hard steel, but hard is never very good for a barrel, so am a bit puzzled on this!

Best,
R.

 

[Sam squanch]

Isn’t there a iron pillar in India that resists rust and decay, that’s been there a very long time?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Tough iron;
Most twisted barrels, (not true 'Damascus but twisted around a mandrel and showing a spiral effect) are pretty soft.

It might be a hard steel, but hard is never very good for a barrel, so am a bit puzzled on this!

Twisted Barrels - I don’t believe these are twisted Damascus barrels at all. The description in Edgerton’s book is that of long parallel ‘straw’-like lengths of steel wrapped longitudinally around a mandrel and then hammer forge-welded to become one homegenous steel. There was no evidence at all of either a typical Damascus pattern or any spiral wrapping.

Hard Steel - Note in all of my posts on this topic I had never used the word ‘hard’, I said it was extremely ‘tough’, two entirely different traits! Like SS is not hard, but is tough, damn tough!

And if you don’t cut SS with the proper technique (medium speed/high feed (or pressure rate) you WILL work harden the piece and then never drill through it or cut through it. BTW, for those drilling through SSs, have a 2nd helper use a spray bottle of water and constantly spray the bit and you’ll cut through in 1/3rd of the time or better, than when cut dry!

 

[Rudyard]

Isn’t there a iron pillar in India that resists rust and decay, that’s been there a very long time?

Yes cant recall where but yes its there ' Wootz 'I think is a steel highly prized on earlier times worth its weight in gold for some purposes .A bit like Crucible steel from Sheffield's' Abbey lane works .Now restored by the way. Benjimin Huntsman process prized for clock springs and like items .He was a clockmaker . Rust is hard on saws (Almost as rough as Ricksie! on barrels !) The Omani brls if that is their origin are generally good Robert Wiggington in his book on the Guns of Tippu Sultan says there Indian & illustrates several re used for his self acting matchlocks . Ime currently using a long very heavy breached barrel that is twist unsure origin but now un altered will be an Elizabethan matchlock much as I once made for the Gunner of the " Golden Hinde '. Made the lock long years ago in Adeliade its been whittling to be used for nie 40 years . Like India' don't look for logic ' ,
Regards Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Flint,
When you say you do not think these are twisted barrels at all, are you meaning this specific case?
In that you may well be right, as I see no grain in the surface to suggest it is a twist.

However, a great deal or torador barrels are twisted. Rick has a good example,and I have similar.
The Jaipur pieces of hunting style are by and large all made of ribbons twisted around a mandrel.

If you wish for photographic evidence of torador barrels that are made of ribbons of steel spiralled around a mandrel, I can supply you with plenty.

All best,
R.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Rich:

Great question! This one appears not to be twisted, but it is also Edgerton’s passage on Indian barrel making that is now most curious.

 

[rickystl]

Rudyard said: "The Omani brls if that is their origin are generally good Robert Wiggington in his book on the Guns of Tippu Sultan says there Indian & illustrates several re used for his self acting matchlocks ."

I remember our past discussion on the fluted, Omani barrels. Don't believe we ever came up with any positive evidence of exactly where they were made. I recall Northern India would be as good a guess as any.

One of the first things I noticed after receiving the wall gun was the lack of any outside barrel taper. Only a slight amount. Of course, this made the gun much heavier. But this is likely what they wanted.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard said: "The Omani brls if that is their origin are generally good Robert Wiggington in his book on the Guns of Tippu Sultan says there Indian & illustrates several re used for his self acting matchlocks ."

I remember our past discussion on the fluted, Omani barrels. Don't believe we ever came up with any positive evidence of exactly where they were made. I recall Northern India would be as good a guess as any.

One of the first things I noticed after receiving the wall gun was the lack of any outside barrel taper. Only a slight amount. Of course, this made the gun much heavier. But this is likely what they wanted.

Rick

Though its not close by I don't recall any uniformity on the one Ex Jia pore piece I cleaned up & shot along with' Bucks county 'It seemed just a supersize typical otherwise Indian gun .Maybe 'Bucks county' has a photo ile ask him. I know it came with a letter signed by the Maharaja of Jiapore he likely had heaps and the letter was a good selling ploy . The bore was fine . ' The mysterious East' like I say Don't look for logic in India (Or Africa either )Ime sure there is Some logic but its well obscured.
Regards Rudyard ,