India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[rickystl]

MORE PICS......

 

[Rudyard]

UPDATE:

Well, as promised earlier, here are some pics of the shortened section of barrel. 95% of the cutting chore has to be awarded to Flint. And at now, 74 years old, I'm sure glad a younger man took on this task. I'll let Flint explain how tough this this iron was to cut. I sure would not want to cut it using a regular hacksaw.
Anyway, as I anticipated, the bore condition of these Torador muskets are the worst I've ever seen. Heavy, flaking rust on top of other hardened rust and who knows what else. LOL The top section in the photo, at the rear of the breech, you can see the vent hole from the pan. In this case, instead of a larger powder chamber at the rear, we have a chamber that is slightly smaller than nominal bore size. But do note what originally formed this narrow section so the ball would sit on the slight ridge ahead of the powder charge. I can't really tell if this narrow section was formed with the barrel or the breech plug.
Fellow forum member Pukka also said the bores on these Torador muskets are the worst he has seen. He even put forth a possible theory that when these muskets were captured and rack numbered by opposing military troops, that they might have poured some type of acidic liquid down the bores so they could not be put back in service. Looking at this bore I'm starting to think it might be more than a theory. (?)
There's no way you could ram a ball of close size down this bore. Maybe they just shot these guns until they could no longer be loaded and returned to the arsenal to be refurbished ? Or simple discarded ? hard to believe they would be discarded with all the labor it took to make them. But I'll let Flint mention how tough this iron is.

Rick

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[Rudyard]

Its hard to imagine a bore worse than that . The one I cleaned up and shot had a decent barrel I cleaned it thourghyolly and it sits on a gun shop wall with the note" We sell Matchlocks to Machine guns "unless I made note, I cant now check the breach configuation but it seemed a narrow then opened up longer that that shown '.Bucks Co'might have a pic the bore wasn't bad. The deed is questionable still .
Rudyard

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

That metal was TOUGH!

The toughest ‘known’ metal I can equate it to was when I was cutting through 316L stainless steel. I burned through 2 TiNitraded SawZall blades in the process using a 12amp Milwaukee Sawzall. But a pretty clean cut, by hand otherwise, huh?

To me, it looks like the sub-caliber chamber was a tube-like extension off of or as part of the breech plug. The barrel was likely heated (expands) with the plug press fit into the end of the barrel and then the breech end was forge-welded closed.

 

[Sam squanch]

Wow! That is some rust! I had one of these barrels years ago, i thought about shooting it until i saw several what looked like brazing joins right where you would hold the gun with your left hand, i just made a reading lamp from it. With the pan sawn off and a hole drilled in the breech it was not a candidate for shooting. I don’t think these guns were damaged on purpose, the victors could either re use or sell them. They may have heated the barrels red hot and twisted them it they wanted them destroyed beyond using them again.

 

[Sam squanch]

Watch out Rick ! Rudyard may be planning revenge!

 

[TobJohn]

It kind of looks like those pre minie rifles where the bullet is smashed down to expand onto the rifling. Clearly any innovation towards accurate shooting on this gun is a lost cause.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

It doesn't look like it was ever finished inside either, Rick and Flint.
See lap marks and as rough as hell.
If it had slept no the bottom of a lake it would likely look better inside.

Why the sleeved breech?
That's a new one on me!

 

[rickystl]

"To me, it looks like the sub-caliber chamber was a tube-like extension off of or as part of the breech plug. The barrel was likely heated (expands) with the plug press fit into the end of the barrel and then the breech end was forge-welded closed."

That's what it looks like to me too. I was actually expecting to see the breech end with a short, narrow section (making a small ridge where the ball would sit) expanding to a larger than bore size powder chamber at the rear, like most of these barrels I've seen. That's how the barrel was on my Torador. But, as you can see, with this wall gun barrel, the entire powder chamber section is slightly smaller and longer than nominal bore size. But in either case, it does show they wanted the ball to sit proud of the powder, creating an air gap between both. I'm still scratching my head ?? LOL

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

But in either case, it does show they wanted the ball to sit proud of the powder, creating an air gap between both. I'm still scratching my head ?? LOL

Rick

There was discussion a while back on what type of powder Indians used, right? If it was similar to serpentine, it could be the same reason handgonnes and bombards had that chamber. From what I can figure out, mostly from Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, by Burt S Hall, the narrow powder chamber is supposed to have compacted serpentine powder in the rear, to aid in the initial ignition and mix (because the components of serpentine separate easily) of the powder, and then the air gap allows the powder to be moved away from each other and increase ignition spread and speed, because compacted serpentine powder is super slow.

 

[rickystl]

It doesn't look like it was ever finished inside either, Rick and Flint.
See lap marks and as rough as hell.
If it had slept no the bottom of a lake it would likely look better inside.

Why the sleeved breech?
That's a new one on me!

Hi Pukka

LOL !! That bore is worse than either of us thought. The outside of the barrel didn't look anything close to this. Just the normal, smooth patina. Go figure ??? The sleeve would not allow the ball to travel past it while loading the ball, creating that air gap between powder and ball. Of course, you would have to know the correct amount of powder to use so the volume did not exceed the top of the ridge. For what ever reason, they believed this improved long range accuracy. It's all very strange.

When Bobby Hoyt installed a new barrel liner in my Torador barrel, he also had to make an extra sleeve for the breech end (which was slightly larger than bore size in this case, so that the sleeve would "mate" with the liner to make the entire bore length straight cylinder bore. Bobby is a genius with this kind of barrel restoration. LOL Of course, the cost of the liner, sleeve, and new, threaded style breech plug was close to twice what a normal liner job would cost.

Rick

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I was actually expecting to see the breech end with a short, narrow section (making a small ridge where the ball would sit) expanding to a larger than bore size powder chamber at the rear, like most of these barrels I've seen. That's how the barrel was on my Torador.

Maybe to form that ridge, a mandrel was punched down into the barrel, to hit on the breech plug extension, to form that ridge? Recall, the whole intent of that ridge or sub-caliber bore was to not compact the early gun powdahs too tight, or they would not combust.

But in either case, it does show they wanted the ball to sit proud of the powder, creating an air gap between both.

No, not an 'air gap' per se, not like failing to fully seat a ball directly on the charge, like leaving it an inch or two or more above it. The design was purposely intended to have a powdah chamber that allowed the powder charge to 'breathe', for if/when comacted too tightly - early powdahs won't explode.

Combustion needs 3 things ... air, fuel (powder) and ignition (the match) ... compromise 1 of those ... no fire!

Serpentine Powder​

"The earliest gunpowder was made by grinding the ingredients separately and mixing them together dry. This was known as serpentine. The behaviour of serpentine was highly variable, depending on a number of factors that were difficult to predict and control. If packed too tightly and not confined, a charge of serpentine might fizzle; conversely, it might develop internal cracks and detonate. When subjected to vibration, as when being transported by wagon, the components of serpentine separated into layers according to relative density, the sulfur settling to the bottom and the charcoal rising to the top. Remixing at the battery was necessary to maintain the proper proportions—an inconvenient and hazardous procedure producing clouds of noxious and potentially explosive dust."

Corned Powder​

"Shortly after 1400, smiths learned to combine the ingredients of gunpowder in water and grind them together as a slurry. This was a significant improvement in several respects. Wet incorporation was more complete and uniform than dry mixing, the process “froze” the components permanently into a stable grain matrix so that separation was no longer a problem, and wet slurry could be ground in large quantities by water-driven mills with little danger of explosion. The use of waterpower also sharply reduced cost.

After grinding, the slurry was dried in a sheet or cake. It was then processed in stamping mills, which typically used hydraulically tripped wooden hammers to break the sheet into grains. After being tumbled to wear the sharp edges off the grains and impart a glaze to their surface, they were sieved. The grain size varied from coarse - about the size of grains of wheat or corn (hence the name corned powder) - to extremely fine. Powder too fine to be used was reincorporated into the slurry for reprocessing. Corned powder burned more uniformly and rapidly than serpentine; the result was a stronger powder that rendered many older guns dangerous."

 

[rickystl]

There was discussion a while back on what type of powder Indians used, right? If it was similar to serpentine, it could be the same reason handgonnes and bombards had that chamber. From what I can figure out, mostly from Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, by Burt S Hall, the narrow powder chamber is supposed to have compacted serpentine powder in the rear, to aid in the initial ignition and mix (because the components of serpentine separate easily) of the powder, and then the air gap allows the powder to be moved away from each other and increase ignition spread and speed, because compacted serpentine powder is super slow.

I believe that is still the current theory. And it seems to make the most sense. Apparently, the locals, even during the 1800's were still making their powder using a similar recipe as ancient serpentine powder. Which requires more oxygen to reliably ignite and burn.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Wow! That is some rust! I had one of these barrels years ago, i thought about shooting it until i saw several what looked like brazing joins right where you would hold the gun with your left hand, i just made a reading lamp from it. With the pan sawn off and a hole drilled in the breech it was not a candidate for shooting. I don’t think these guns were damaged on purpose, the victors could either re use or sell them. They may have heated the barrels red hot and twisted them it they wanted them destroyed beyond using them again.

Sam: Remember when you were joking that I should have had the first cut of the barrel in two in 5 minutes using a regular hacksaw ? May I now refer you to Post #144 above. LOL !!! Hard to believe using semi-primitive methods that the locals would eventually over a couple hundred years would be able to make Damascus iron that tough.

It's said that these barrels were made in sections over a mandrel and forge welded together. Through at least a couple hundred years they seemed to have perfected the method where the barrels would not separate or blow up. The fancy, fluted barrels from Oman are made similar.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

"No, not an 'air gap' per se, not like failing to fully seat a ball directly on the charge, like leaving it an inch or two or more above it. The design was purposely intended to have a powdah chamber that allowed the powder charge to 'breathe', for if/when comacted too tightly - early powdahs won't explode."

That's more or less what I was trying to say. LOL

"Maybe to form that ridge, a mandrel was punched down into the barrel, to hit on the breech plug extension, to form that ridge? Recall, the whole intent of that ridge or sub-caliber bore was to not compact the early gun powdahs too tight, or they would not combust."

That also may be the case using the mandrel to form the ridge. Actually, might make more sense.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I'm planning on scraping some of the rust/residue from one of the barrel halves and try to locate a local lab that can analyze the contents. Might prove interesting.

Rick

 

[Sam squanch]

Were you going to submit a sample of the barrel iron to a lab for analysis? Might be interesting to find out more on the iron….

 

[rickystl]

Were you going to submit a sample of the barrel iron to a lab for analysis? Might be interesting to find out more on the iron….

Yes, good idea while I'm at it.

 

[Rudyard]

There was discussion a while back on what type of powder Indians used, right? If it was similar to serpentine, it could be the same reason handgonnes and bombards had that chamber. From what I can figure out, mostly from Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, by Burt S Hall, the narrow powder chamber is supposed to have compacted serpentine powder in the rear, to aid in the initial ignition and mix (because the components of serpentine separate easily) of the powder, and then the air gap allows the powder to be moved away from each other and increase ignition spread and speed, because compacted serpentine powder is super slow.

Well your getting technical & lost me but ime open to any theory .More seriously there was a Mr Ulrick where he tested such early powders and demonstrated these early pieces Ile see if I can locate the article that ran in The MLAGB Journal ' Black Powder' There was also a writer in very old Gun Report or some such journal he made up the old powders for tests in Surviveing guns .rather than the powder of his days c 1960 might been' Gun Digest' Perhaps some reader can recall & provide us the article .
I have the
' Black Powder' magazine of the MLAGB. While Ide guess most School boys tried to make gunpower I just got grey fizzles so recoursed to' Penny Bangers 'commanly had about November the 5th ' Guy Fawkes' day.( He got a raw deal he being a rare person who went to Parliament with good intentions ) Well as he saw it. If he dd nothing else he caused penny Bangers for School boy experiments . More annon ,Rudyard

 

[RAEDWALD]

The air gap is not going to contribute any significant amount of oxygen but it may allow the serpentine powder to open up to allow the deflagration front to advance more rapidly.

But I am of the opinion that the aim was to have a thicker breech to contain an adiabatic deflagration, closer to an actual explosion. In this the deflagration front moves slowly through the compacted serpentine powder and the pressure of the whole chamber raises the temperature such that the whole charge is ignited almost at once just by the temperature caused by the pressure rise.

I note Europeans commenting that the locals would almost fill the chamber whatever the strength of the powder, possibly as they had learned not to allow a large air gap in the chamber.