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Indian Made Arms
- Thread starter cositrike
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Joel/Calgary
50 Cal.
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Indeed. What U.S. gunmakers proof (or is it prove?) their guns?gizamo said:
Regards,
Joel
BEP
40 Cal.
Joel/Calgary said:
There are no proof standards or proof houses for U.S. made muzzleloaders. There are, however, hundreds of thousands of lawyers willing to jump on anything that appears suspect. Tends to keep pretty good standards for American smokepole builders. :haha: :rotf:
Don't confuse Track listing a consignment gun, as being a dealer. According to the NSS-A blog, one company claims they sell to Track. If I buy a Loyalist Arms, MVTC, or Veteran Arms musket new, and then turn around and decide I need to resell it by sending it to Track..., Track is not the dealer.
Here is a current list of Track's offers of Factory Finished Guns:
ASM - Armi San Marco - Italy (1)
AU - Aldo Uberti - Italy (7)
Beretta - Italy (1)
DP - Davide Pedersoli - Italy (8)
Euroarms of America - Italy (1)
EMF - Santa Ana, California (1)
*** - Pietta - Italy (2)
IAB - Pedretti - SILE - Powder River - EMF - Italy (1)
InvestArm - Italy (25)
Lyman - Italy (25)
Parker Hale - Birmingham, England (early production) (2)
Parker Hale - Gardone, Italy (current production) (2)
T/C - Thompson Center Arms - Rochester, New Hampsire, USA (2)
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. - Japan (4)
Another problem with the linked thread..., nobody is able to establish if the barrel companies are the same ones used by LA and VA, and only one is identified as an MVTC supplier..., but not the sole MVTC supplier.
Now as to proofing, The United States, Japan, Canada, Spain, and India have no CIP proof house. So if you shoot a barrel made in any of these countries, you take the word of the importer/builder they are safe to fire. Sure, they will often tell you the type of steel they "use" or should be using, but you have to take their word for it unless you test it yourself if it hasn't gone to a proof house.
The risk is the same folks, when shooting a CVA longrifle with a barrel made in Jukar Spain, or an Indian musket sold by Loyalist Arms. They are sold ready-to-shoot, and if a barrel fails your recourse is to sue the importer.
The same is true for an American made barrel, folks. Each of the current barrel companies in the United States had a starting point..., new ones appear from time to time..., their reputations were built up over time, but it's still no guaruntee of safety. A track record builds confidence in a product, but there is a first time for everything, even barrel failures.
Unproofed is unproofed, yet folks don't call for a ban on CVA guns using barrels in Jukar, Spain, nor on Japanese barrels made by Miroku. American made barrels are not questioned even if from a new company from their first production run. WHY NOT? The legal recourses are the same; the risk when shooting is the same.
So far there is one Indian musket barrel from MVTC that bulged and split. The bulge was forward of the breech, and the resulting split went from that bulge backwards to the breech plug. Metalurgy was conducted, and the strength of the steel used was not the fault. Cleaning procedures are considered the cause of the problem. The situation has not been replicated in a controlled setting so this is only a theory to date. There have been no repeats of this accident since.
LD
Here is a current list of Track's offers of Factory Finished Guns:
ASM - Armi San Marco - Italy (1)
AU - Aldo Uberti - Italy (7)
Beretta - Italy (1)
DP - Davide Pedersoli - Italy (8)
Euroarms of America - Italy (1)
EMF - Santa Ana, California (1)
*** - Pietta - Italy (2)
IAB - Pedretti - SILE - Powder River - EMF - Italy (1)
InvestArm - Italy (25)
Lyman - Italy (25)
Parker Hale - Birmingham, England (early production) (2)
Parker Hale - Gardone, Italy (current production) (2)
T/C - Thompson Center Arms - Rochester, New Hampsire, USA (2)
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. - Japan (4)
Another problem with the linked thread..., nobody is able to establish if the barrel companies are the same ones used by LA and VA, and only one is identified as an MVTC supplier..., but not the sole MVTC supplier.
Now as to proofing, The United States, Japan, Canada, Spain, and India have no CIP proof house. So if you shoot a barrel made in any of these countries, you take the word of the importer/builder they are safe to fire. Sure, they will often tell you the type of steel they "use" or should be using, but you have to take their word for it unless you test it yourself if it hasn't gone to a proof house.
The risk is the same folks, when shooting a CVA longrifle with a barrel made in Jukar Spain, or an Indian musket sold by Loyalist Arms. They are sold ready-to-shoot, and if a barrel fails your recourse is to sue the importer.
The same is true for an American made barrel, folks. Each of the current barrel companies in the United States had a starting point..., new ones appear from time to time..., their reputations were built up over time, but it's still no guaruntee of safety. A track record builds confidence in a product, but there is a first time for everything, even barrel failures.
Unproofed is unproofed, yet folks don't call for a ban on CVA guns using barrels in Jukar, Spain, nor on Japanese barrels made by Miroku. American made barrels are not questioned even if from a new company from their first production run. WHY NOT? The legal recourses are the same; the risk when shooting is the same.
So far there is one Indian musket barrel from MVTC that bulged and split. The bulge was forward of the breech, and the resulting split went from that bulge backwards to the breech plug. Metalurgy was conducted, and the strength of the steel used was not the fault. Cleaning procedures are considered the cause of the problem. The situation has not been replicated in a controlled setting so this is only a theory to date. There have been no repeats of this accident since.
LD
LD, I can't help but to wonder why you are so passionate about defending the Indian made guns. :hmm:
In the normal course of things the items themselves will prove to be worthy or unworthy of market, and shooter, acceptance.
Having seen many Indian made products, not connected with the shooting sports, I am very leery of the quality of anything from that country.
I am on a woodworking forum that has a member legally immigrated from India. He has described the deplorable working conditions and low, near slave level, pay workers get in Indian factories. I simply do not trust the quality of those products and, most especially, do not want to support the factories and their owners by buying their products. Better stop here before I get mod zapped.
In the normal course of things the items themselves will prove to be worthy or unworthy of market, and shooter, acceptance.
Having seen many Indian made products, not connected with the shooting sports, I am very leery of the quality of anything from that country.
I am on a woodworking forum that has a member legally immigrated from India. He has described the deplorable working conditions and low, near slave level, pay workers get in Indian factories. I simply do not trust the quality of those products and, most especially, do not want to support the factories and their owners by buying their products. Better stop here before I get mod zapped.
tg said:
Put me down for 3. :rotf:
Robert Egler
50 Cal.
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tg said:
I'd be in on that! :haha:
दो
Robby
Robby
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Loyalist Dave said:
Oh Dave, I'm sorry but you are incorrect on so many levels but that's okay, it's all opinion anyway, right? :thumbsup: Just like everything I say below. Well some of what I say is opinion, the rest is cold, hard fact.
I will say that on US barrels by any maker we know exactly the material that their barrels are made of... bar none - and they are consistent in quality of construction as well as material. Not so the imitation guns from India by any maker, we just don't know what they are.
In case anyone wants to know what Dave is talking about when he talks about CIP standards, here is a link that will tell you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commi...nte_pour_l'Epreuve_des_Armes_à_Feu_Portatives
I do have to correct you Dave, Spain does adhere to the "CIP Standards", check the membership at the bottom. Sure, the US, Canada, Japan and India are not members but India of those nations alone does have a government proof house and I would put India's Government proof house at Ishapore up against any of the CIP member nations, their standards strictly adhere to those at Birmingham in England. The problem there is that this would add to the cost of their product and their customers wouldn't stand for the increase in cost.... or would they? Hmmmmm, we'll never know, we'll have to keep guessing and having proofing done by the owner or a vendor who uses a substandard proof for a barrel because it is in his best interest. :idunno:
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1853enfield
32 Cal.
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my made in india 12 ga. is marked on both blrs profed for 1-1/4 shot and 89 gr of bp. it makes me feel a bit better knowing it has that marking. 1893enfield
This is a good point.
What I am passionate about is painting every company and every product based on personal bias. You have three companies, one in Canada, two in the United States, and lots of "stories" of barrel failures, some based on many decades ago (other threads on other sites), but folks won't give specifics. So lets damage folk's livelihood even when their products haven't had a problem. God bless us Americans. Gosh if it's such a nefarious situation, why doesn't somebody make a fraudulent proof house stamp, and stamp the barrels while claiming they sent them out to have them proofed? Who would know until there was a failure? :hmm:
The "arguments" have been, Indian barrels aren't proofed by a CIP proof house therefore they are dangerous and/or Anything from India is a pipe bomb. (sometimes substitute: the working conditions over there suck). When it's pointed out that the United States and Japan don't proof their barrels, the argument goes to: India has a proof house in Ishapore, and it's just as good, so why not proof them there?
So far the reasoning is spurious at the least. If a CIP proof house mark is needed, Ishapore won't suffice no matter what, and if Indian manufacturing conditions cause a person not to trust India..., then you can't logically trust Ishapore. They claim they have the same standards as the CIP..., OK so why not be part of the CIP? Let's take the arsenal at Ishapore's "word" for it, for that IS what is being suggested.
The debate then moves to: Indian barrel makers say their barrels are not to be shot. OK how do you know this, which makers, and whom do they supply? Which is followed by: This guy in Hungary had a conversation and .... Gee and how do we know who this guy is? For all we know his last name is Pedersoli, and he actually lives in Italy. Rumors to harm a competitor are not unknown in this country folks. Ever hear the rumor that Proctor & Gamble's trade mark is Satanic?
One "source" on another thread claims that the barrels that are not meant to shoot, but are being converted, have no markings on them. Well I have removed many Indian barrels to reduce the shine on them, MVTC and LA, and they all had date of manufacture stamps and a maker's mark.
Now we have: The NSS-A bans them. That proves they are unsafe. Anybody who disagrees is endangering others and is a fool. Well when were they banned, and why? It's possible that one company had defective guns, and the officials simply said, "nothing from India will ever be used". It's quick and simple for them.
An NSS-A official remarks about burst barrels. Again..., when, where, why, which guns, and which company or companies? You would think that if folks were so concerned about actual safety, they could at least tell us X company had a barrel failure in Y gun, so avoid that model or that company altogether. We know about the lone MVTC musket barrel failure, and it was on a first model bess. Why is this so hard for the other claimed examples? So far in the several years that this has been discussed, nobody that I've ever read has done that.
As far as risk is concerned, NO I'm not mistaken. You literally are taking the word of any American company that their barrel is safe. I don't have a problem with that. Even when I see this American Barrel Explodes And that's not all... Reality Check ..., folks, even when made in America, or Japan, or proofed at Ishapore, or having a CIP proof mark from Italy, England, or Spain..., it was safe when it left the proof house...., that don't mean it's still safe. A proof mark on the outside of a good looking barrel, that's nice and clean, doesn't prevent it from being rusted out and pitted on the inside to the point of unsafe, while outside it looks in great condition. You can clean up the inside of a roached-out barrel, so that even if you ran a cleaning patch down it you won't get rust..., and even a brand new, proofed barrel isn't immune to operator error. (See youtube video above)
Ever seen anybody run a scope down a muzzleloader barrel and inspect one of the "safe" barrels at a match (outside of the NSS-A?) Does your club do this to each and every rifle that shows up? Sure, some guy shows up with a rust bucket folks ask questions, but not if it looks right on the outside. Do they do scope muskets at Re-enactments?
LD
You said, in part:
Are you in a business dependant on selling or repairing ml guns imported from India? Do you have a financial interest in more of these guns being sold in the U.S.?
Curious you would be in a position to remove many Indian barrels. :hmm:
Are you in a business dependant on selling or repairing ml guns imported from India? Do you have a financial interest in more of these guns being sold in the U.S.?
oldfart1956
36 Cal.
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L.D. while I do agree with you 100% I am amazed that you would endeavor to inform those who refuse to be informed with such vigor. I personally don't own any India guns but fully support those who wish to. Facts are wasted on the ignorant my friend. Audie...
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
audie said:
:shocked2:
:rotf:
Guest
One of the earlier replies on this thread featured an animation of beating a dead horse.
Now, I’ve been out of the loop for awhile, but I ain’t exactly a newbie. I was not aware that the Indian guns being discussed in this thread even existed until I started reading this thread. The moral, is that just because many or most are informed on a subject, it might still be a good idea to revisit it once in a while for those who aren’t. It isn’t beating a dead horse.
As far as the proofing of barrels is concerned”¦..
Do a web search for “barrel steel Buckskin Report” and spend a little time reading various message board threads (at least one from this message board) dealing with all the hubbub that was floating around back in the early1980s when The Buckskin Report published some things saying that some of the most respected barrel makers around were using steel that was unsafe for the purpose.
I don’t know if many or any of today’ custom makers proof the barrels before putting them on a rifle or smoothbore. I don’t think any of the many people I know who built their own guns ever did. I guess the best thing for someone who buys a questionable to do is proof it themselves. Take the barrel off the stock, overload it, and set the charge off with some rocket fuse. Just make sure it’s long enough to allow you to be far away when it goes. I remember doing such a thing when I bought my original English double barrel. When I saw how far back the gun slid I was glad my shoulder wasn’t behind it.
Now, I’ve been out of the loop for awhile, but I ain’t exactly a newbie. I was not aware that the Indian guns being discussed in this thread even existed until I started reading this thread. The moral, is that just because many or most are informed on a subject, it might still be a good idea to revisit it once in a while for those who aren’t. It isn’t beating a dead horse.
As far as the proofing of barrels is concerned”¦..
Do a web search for “barrel steel Buckskin Report” and spend a little time reading various message board threads (at least one from this message board) dealing with all the hubbub that was floating around back in the early1980s when The Buckskin Report published some things saying that some of the most respected barrel makers around were using steel that was unsafe for the purpose.
I don’t know if many or any of today’ custom makers proof the barrels before putting them on a rifle or smoothbore. I don’t think any of the many people I know who built their own guns ever did. I guess the best thing for someone who buys a questionable to do is proof it themselves. Take the barrel off the stock, overload it, and set the charge off with some rocket fuse. Just make sure it’s long enough to allow you to be far away when it goes. I remember doing such a thing when I bought my original English double barrel. When I saw how far back the gun slid I was glad my shoulder wasn’t behind it.
audie said:
He really didn't state many facts. But he did preach a philisophical sermon.
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