-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Indian-Made Besses?
- Thread starter DanChamberlain
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 33
hawk 2 said:
So, you spent $500 for an india made lock and threw the rest away? :shocked2:
mike alexandre
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2005
- Messages
- 722
- Reaction score
- 0
You took the words right off my key board - Nothing wrong with it that a new stock and a new barrel wont fix ??- sounds like my wifes idea of an argument. And yes I did spend 2 days getting my mates Indian Bess to be reliable enough to fire 3 volleys for the first time since he bought it 5 years ago. It went on to fire a 13 shot live fire card as well but I'm not holding my breath.
This forum needs an FAQ section, with Indian made Besses at the top.
Be careful when reading responses to the question, as the Indian products have been around for a few years, and the quality was really lacking when they first came out. They were heavy and unhandy, and most came unvented. The sellers didn't have spare parts available.
Now, with most vendors, (Discriminating General being the exception) these problems have been resolved. I had a Pedersoli Charleville that I traded for an Indian Bess that had been much improved by the previous owner. Comparing the two, the Pedersoli was much more skillfully put together. However, the gun was far too heavy and poorly balanced. The Indian Bess feels much lighter and balances more like a gun should.
Personally, I do not plan on shooting anything other than powder out of the Bess, and I am very happy with it. I do not feel I can justify to myself spending $1200 for a Pedersoli product that cost half that much only a few short years ago. Yes, the quality is fairly good on the Italian reproductions, but why spend that much when for just a couple hundred (or less) more, you can buy an original?
Be careful when reading responses to the question, as the Indian products have been around for a few years, and the quality was really lacking when they first came out. They were heavy and unhandy, and most came unvented. The sellers didn't have spare parts available.
Now, with most vendors, (Discriminating General being the exception) these problems have been resolved. I had a Pedersoli Charleville that I traded for an Indian Bess that had been much improved by the previous owner. Comparing the two, the Pedersoli was much more skillfully put together. However, the gun was far too heavy and poorly balanced. The Indian Bess feels much lighter and balances more like a gun should.
Personally, I do not plan on shooting anything other than powder out of the Bess, and I am very happy with it. I do not feel I can justify to myself spending $1200 for a Pedersoli product that cost half that much only a few short years ago. Yes, the quality is fairly good on the Italian reproductions, but why spend that much when for just a couple hundred (or less) more, you can buy an original?
tom hargrove
45 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2006
- Messages
- 995
- Reaction score
- 2
i have an india made brass bbl blunder buss that functions 100% every time :v i think these guns are downed mostly by those that have never actually used or seen one
"i have an india made brass bbl blunder buss that functions 100% every time i think these guns are downed mostly by those that have never actually used or seen one" ........ ive been thru this 10 years ago with pedersoli owners.. some love them, some hate them.. as i described earlier there are different production runs with all guns.. in a very competitively priced type, some will be good, some will be bad and everything inbetween.. ive talked to plenty of pedersoli owners who are unhappy, and lots are happy.. untill youve had a bad one and searched for service you will support your gun and the other guns in thier lines.. but remember there are some of the very guns you have made by the some makers, sold by the same sellers that have problems.. just for the fun of it call your seller and tell him you have some problems and need to have it fixed, and want to send it to him for a repair, and see what happens.. ..if he tells you to contact so and so, do that, call them and see exactly what they will do for you and how much it will cost.. pedersolis warranty station in texas at that time i needed help was in texas, lone star or somesuch,, it finnaly took a letter after monthes of trying on the phone, they finnaly replied by mail... they said it was after the warranty and there is nothhing they would do with my gun!.. .. in the long run 3,5, 12 years from now if you need a part, some will have to be custom made, some parts will make the gun unusable unless you want to spend half the amount for a new one to fix it.. at that time you will have more into your gun than if you had bought a high end gun.. im not critisizing what you are doing, id like to have a blunderbuss myself and would buy one in an instant if i could fire it first and had the cash at that time.. i have two pedersolis and if im using it often, it goes to the gunsmith once in a while,or i try to fix it. i just hardened a top jaw on the hammer, it simply bent upward after years of use, enough that the stone was popping out when i tightened it down.. im not a gunsmith, and was elated that with help of those on this list i could fix my own gun.. so thats a pluss... ..but the bottom line.. you get what you pay for.. dave
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2006
- Messages
- 478
- Reaction score
- 660
I have only one real issue with the India made guns, and that is safety. When they leave India, they are un-proofed and thus unvented. When they arrive in Canada or the US, the distributor drills them.
The laws of business prevent an item selling for beneath it's market value. The price of an item is a good indication of it's true worth. I had a Ravenshear Long Land musket and another one by John Bosh. I acquired them at the time when authenticty was paramount to me. Both muskets functioned as flawlessly as copies of 250 year old technology could reasonably be expected to perform.
I loaned the Ravenshear gun to a friend so he could shoot at a musket match, and if he's to be believed, he triple loaded the gun. That would be 3 cartridges conatining 80 grains of FFG powder and 3 .730 diameter round balls. Claims it broke his glasses,hurt his cheek, and left his shoulder black and blue. The musket itself was fine. Kit Ravenshear made a hell of a good gun. Very authentic and very safe.
I'm not sure that Raj or Sanje has the same skill level, or reputation. If some American takes a breechplug to the forehead, I think those boys would shrug and say, "Looked good when it left here. For Shiva's sake, why would someone shoot this stuff anyway. We don't vent them."
Pay a man a rupee, and you get a rupee's worth of work. How many rupee's are your eyes, life and limbs worth?
I've been shooting blackpowder for the past 41 years. I've owned a lot of nice guns, and I've wanted a lot more than I could afford, but I never saw one worth taking my life in my hands for. Call me a wimp, but I'm of the opinion that it should be more dangerous to be in front of a gun than behind it.
Styling, accuracy, and handling are all desireable features in a gun, but if you can't be sure of the guns integrity, it ceases to be a gun and becomes a bomb.
Bottom line is, if you trust a guy in sandals and a sari to be your gunsmith, lay your money down and take your chance. For myself, I'd rather wait until I have the money to afford what I want. It's always easier to save and trade for guns than replacement eyes,limbs and lives. It's real tough to get a good sight picture with one eye, and trigger control with a hook is awfully poor.
The laws of business prevent an item selling for beneath it's market value. The price of an item is a good indication of it's true worth. I had a Ravenshear Long Land musket and another one by John Bosh. I acquired them at the time when authenticty was paramount to me. Both muskets functioned as flawlessly as copies of 250 year old technology could reasonably be expected to perform.
I loaned the Ravenshear gun to a friend so he could shoot at a musket match, and if he's to be believed, he triple loaded the gun. That would be 3 cartridges conatining 80 grains of FFG powder and 3 .730 diameter round balls. Claims it broke his glasses,hurt his cheek, and left his shoulder black and blue. The musket itself was fine. Kit Ravenshear made a hell of a good gun. Very authentic and very safe.
I'm not sure that Raj or Sanje has the same skill level, or reputation. If some American takes a breechplug to the forehead, I think those boys would shrug and say, "Looked good when it left here. For Shiva's sake, why would someone shoot this stuff anyway. We don't vent them."
Pay a man a rupee, and you get a rupee's worth of work. How many rupee's are your eyes, life and limbs worth?
I've been shooting blackpowder for the past 41 years. I've owned a lot of nice guns, and I've wanted a lot more than I could afford, but I never saw one worth taking my life in my hands for. Call me a wimp, but I'm of the opinion that it should be more dangerous to be in front of a gun than behind it.
Styling, accuracy, and handling are all desireable features in a gun, but if you can't be sure of the guns integrity, it ceases to be a gun and becomes a bomb.
Bottom line is, if you trust a guy in sandals and a sari to be your gunsmith, lay your money down and take your chance. For myself, I'd rather wait until I have the money to afford what I want. It's always easier to save and trade for guns than replacement eyes,limbs and lives. It's real tough to get a good sight picture with one eye, and trigger control with a hook is awfully poor.
Hey sir!
Well the bess was sold to me as a kit, so to be expected I Had alot of scrubbin, sanding and polishing both stock and barell....Then staining and oiling and the perilous proofing...."the lock was PERFECT from the get go".
I love her.
Well the bess was sold to me as a kit, so to be expected I Had alot of scrubbin, sanding and polishing both stock and barell....Then staining and oiling and the perilous proofing...."the lock was PERFECT from the get go".
I love her.
This worry about safety..
Has any one EVER heard of a indian barell having critical failure??!!
Just curious, As My bess is solid and safe, I have shot lots of 69 cal balls from her, shot and combos of both.
Its a good musket.
I inspect everything I shoot.
If I feel unsafe I will not fire anything no matter a brand label or factory reputation......PERIOD...
Has any one EVER heard of a indian barell having critical failure??!!
Just curious, As My bess is solid and safe, I have shot lots of 69 cal balls from her, shot and combos of both.
Its a good musket.
I inspect everything I shoot.
If I feel unsafe I will not fire anything no matter a brand label or factory reputation......PERIOD...
Mike ,I used the gun for three years and had no problems.
I made a deal and in it were three barrels one is 42" and lighter than the bess barrel .
the wood for the stock was free .
the reason for doing the work on the gun is just to have a reason to go out to my shop (.work is slow for a few weeks)
If I had the money for parts to build another gun I would most likly do that but for now re-working the bess is the best I can do .
come to think of it I was thinking of putting together a Match lock with the old bess barrel
the locks look reasonable simple to construct between me the machinist and the welder at work ,I just might get another project to take me to turkey season.
I made a deal and in it were three barrels one is 42" and lighter than the bess barrel .
the wood for the stock was free .
the reason for doing the work on the gun is just to have a reason to go out to my shop (.work is slow for a few weeks)
If I had the money for parts to build another gun I would most likly do that but for now re-working the bess is the best I can do .
come to think of it I was thinking of putting together a Match lock with the old bess barrel
the locks look reasonable simple to construct between me the machinist and the welder at work ,I just might get another project to take me to turkey season.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2005
- Messages
- 215
- Reaction score
- 6
Inspect first note any problems, fix,then proof test with normal load any barrel or new rifle I build or buy. Better safe than sorry, if any problems it should rear its ugly head. Just my ways has worked so far and still have all digits and eyes.
Just my two cents. PeashooterJoe.
Just my two cents. PeashooterJoe.
I understand the safety concerns, but the Indians must be mindful of the fact that if these things start blowing up, people will quit buying them.
If the "exploding barrel theory" is your main concern, the going price for Bess Barrels made somewhere other than India seems to be $245. It's still much cheaper to buy the whole Indian gun and then mount a new barrel in it than to buy a Pedersoli.
If the "exploding barrel theory" is your main concern, the going price for Bess Barrels made somewhere other than India seems to be $245. It's still much cheaper to buy the whole Indian gun and then mount a new barrel in it than to buy a Pedersoli.
Peace of mind is only a x-ray or magna flux away...but how much will it add to the price of your "cheap" gun?
I have nothing against underpaid foreign workers labouring in primitive conditions (wasn't this how originals were made?), but I do like my guns to have a proof stamp on them
I have nothing against underpaid foreign workers labouring in primitive conditions (wasn't this how originals were made?), but I do like my guns to have a proof stamp on them
You're right about the originals. First production of the Indian Pattern musket were all Indian production and that was 200 years ago. When these guns first came out there was a couple instances of poorly fitted breech plugs but haven't heard anything lately about the same. Have e-mailed a couple English re-enacting groups who use these guns exclusively and they haven't had any gripes. Seems they also saw a couple problems early on but that appears to be a thing of the past for them too. My only gripe was the rather clunky look due to too much wood but most users seem pleased.
The real kicker is the wholesale cost of these guns... they run less than $200 each for the long arms, and the pistols $125.
For those that are buying them as a "parts" kit, its hard to find cast parts at that price let alone hand forged forged ones like these.
I don't like the clunky stocks they put on them, but for the price, restocking might not be a bad option.
There was a post a while back talking about this, and I half considered sending one of these guns to Mike Brooks to evaluate and trick out...
Greg
For those that are buying them as a "parts" kit, its hard to find cast parts at that price let alone hand forged forged ones like these.
I don't like the clunky stocks they put on them, but for the price, restocking might not be a bad option.
There was a post a while back talking about this, and I half considered sending one of these guns to Mike Brooks to evaluate and trick out...
Greg
- Joined
- May 24, 2005
- Messages
- 5,437
- Reaction score
- 5,202
Hi Greg. I believe I was part of that post. I have two pistols at Mike Brook's now. Mike said he would take before and after pictures and post them. Can't wait to see the difference. The pistols I ordered did not seem to have the excess wood the long arms do. Mike said he was near ready to start on them. So, maybe you can wait and see some pics? Rick.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2006
- Messages
- 478
- Reaction score
- 660
The India pattern musket of the 18th century were British made for the East India company, that administered the subcontinent as a corporate interest.The British armed their sepoy soldiers with this cheap musket, but did not manufacture them in India.
We think of the India pattern guns as 3rd model Brown Bess muskets. It had a 39" barrel, a shortened lock bolt plate, no wrist inlay, and was generally cheaper to produce than the Short Land Musket (2nd Model Bess) Because of the East India company's success with these easily produced muskets, the British government adapted it for general issue duing the Napoleonic Wars, when British industry could not meet the demands either of it's own establishment or the small arms needs of it's allies.
The India pattern was replaced in the 1830's with the New Short Land Musket, thus during the entirety of it's production life the India Pattern musket was a British manufacturered musket. I'm not aware of any guns having been made in India between Clive's conquest and the Indian mutiny.
We think of the India pattern guns as 3rd model Brown Bess muskets. It had a 39" barrel, a shortened lock bolt plate, no wrist inlay, and was generally cheaper to produce than the Short Land Musket (2nd Model Bess) Because of the East India company's success with these easily produced muskets, the British government adapted it for general issue duing the Napoleonic Wars, when British industry could not meet the demands either of it's own establishment or the small arms needs of it's allies.
The India pattern was replaced in the 1830's with the New Short Land Musket, thus during the entirety of it's production life the India Pattern musket was a British manufacturered musket. I'm not aware of any guns having been made in India between Clive's conquest and the Indian mutiny.
Jim,
I took a look at "Red Coat and Brown Bess" by Anthony D. Darling and he states that India Pattern muskets were discontinued by the Board of Ordance in 1802/3 and the New Land series was ordered. This was a much more plan musket having a 42" barrel, flat lockplate and reinforced cock. It also used barrel keys instead of pins. Is this the pattern you were referring to?
Then in 1805 the Board of Ordnance again started ordering India Pattern muskets. Eventually in the 1830's they were replaced by percussion muskets.
I agree, none of these muskets were made in India.
Don R
I took a look at "Red Coat and Brown Bess" by Anthony D. Darling and he states that India Pattern muskets were discontinued by the Board of Ordance in 1802/3 and the New Land series was ordered. This was a much more plan musket having a 42" barrel, flat lockplate and reinforced cock. It also used barrel keys instead of pins. Is this the pattern you were referring to?
Then in 1805 the Board of Ordnance again started ordering India Pattern muskets. Eventually in the 1830's they were replaced by percussion muskets.
I agree, none of these muskets were made in India.
Don R
