Indian muskets?

[Musketeer]

Does anyone out there have any experience with the smoothbore muskets offered by Middlesex Village Trading Co. and[url] MilitaryHeritage.com[/url]? These are supposedly made in India rather than Italy, and cost about half what the Italian guns cost. They appear to be of good quality, but looks can be deceiving. Thanks.

 

[Rebel]

Hopefully Daryl will respond to this post. I know he recently received one and had some problems, but i won't go into what they were. i will leave it to him whether to talk about it or not, since i have no personal experience with them.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Reaction has been mixed around the boards so far. There were some real problems with the initial batches but the dealers you mentioned and Loyalist Armes, among others have been fairly selective about what they accept. The general comments seem to run that they are a bit "clunky" and can use a going over with some wood work to make them a bit more realistic looking but are generally functionable. Before you buy anything I'd recommend you talk directly with the dealers and find out exactly what their policy is about these guns should you have a problem. Good luck.

 

[Cheyenne]

http://www.revwarprogressive.org/

Try this site and clik on the report of the loyalist 1st Model Bess. Good article and they have it side by side with an original so you can see the bulkiness of the wood. Still, they say it's pretty good.

Can't say one way or t'other as I don't have one.......YET! :winking:

 

[Oregonjohn]

Hey Musketeer:
I purchased a Loyalist Arms 1740s-50s Carbine about a year and a half ago. Couldn't be more pleased at how it looks and shoots. I can't lay it up against an original so don't know about how it would match up but for my purposes, it is a hoot to tote around and shoot. .62 caliber, purchased the bayonet separately, had them drill the vent....nice piece of stuff for my purposes. Nice tight fit, lock sparks super...looks good. The added plus in the equation is that they are really super to deal with and have patiently answered all of my inquiries. I would without hesitation purchase from them again should the need arise. I have also heard great stuff about Pete's Middlesex products and service as well as Military Heritage. Guess it depends on your view of what yer carryin' around...absolutely perfect example of a period musket, or something that fits in well....for many, many less $$$$. I am pleased with my musket.....very much.
All the best,
John in Oregon

 

[Musketeer]

Thanks for all the info so far, guys! This forum is the greatest! Long live thw smoothbore flintlock!

 

[frenchfusil]

One of the guys in my unit had Arms make him up a semi custom 1740s-50s Carbine that he's been very pleased with (I know he got a wood rammer can't rember everything else) Not a bad looking gun didn't seem to chuncky to me when I handled it.

Tristyn J Cramer

Guerre Abenakis

 

I purchased the Sea Service, musket from military/heritage.com (Discriminating General) As received, it looked pretty good, typical rough Indian woodwork, fair inletting, with amazing finish surfaces on the metal parts. I drilled the touch-hole, which matched their previously cut groove on the plug face, perfectly, as well as the frizzen's face to smooth thr rough-grinding they'd done. Once smoothed up, with a new flint, the sparks actually bounced off the floor, sizzling in the pan and all the way to the floor - amazing lock geometry, and proper hardening of the parts, I guess.
: After firing some 50 rounds, and finding this musket has the very best sparking flint lock I'd ever fired, with the fastest ingnition ever, then cleaning it with Moose Snot, I decided to pull the plug to check out how my cleaning with Moose Snot had gone(several weeks 'after'.
: AS the plug was actually a bit over 1/10" short of the thread length inside, there was fouling stuck in the threads and bridged back against the plug's sides and at the front of the plug - There was lots of fouing buildup that hadn't been removed by the cleaning patches. This really wasn't too drastic, as all of the threads were plugged with BP fouling, right back to the plug-plate's face. THAT was drastic! The only thing that kept the fouling from blowing out the sides of the barrel's breech when the musket was fired, was the tight fit of the plug's plate against the rear surface of the barrel.
; The finish of the inside of the barel looked just like a brand new modern high priced shotgun- amazingly smooth and highly polished- absolutely beautiful!- however the plug fit was a severe letdown.
; As this wasn't a suitable, seemingly safe situation, raising concerns by me, my brother, a retired custom riflesmith, and with Robert Henderson from the Discriminating General(from what I'd told him as well as the photo I sent to him) I've boxed the musket up to send back to "The Discriminating General" for refund.
; Robert has advised me they will be conducting severe "Proof Testing" to see if the breech leaks as it now is, as well as giving it a few months to 'rot' in the threads from the fouling that fills them due to the poor machining of the threads. The thread-fit is indeed poor, seemingly, just like a screw, 1 size smaller than needed for the hole. :results:
Daryl

 

[musketman]

I've boxed the musket up to send back to "The Discriminating General" for refund.

Did you have to plug the vent hole before mailing it back?

Do you have to wait until it's "PROOFED" before you get your refund?

 

[Musketeer]

Daryl, thanks for the info. I certainly hope that breech plug problem is addressed, as I'd really like to get a couple of those Indian Besses: a Sea Service, like yours and a 1728 Long Land Pattern. :boohoo: Although, a couple of other posters seem to really like theirs. Perphaps yours was(hopefully)an isolated case? Anyhow, please let me know how things turn out. Thanks again! :thumbsup:

 

Well, how things turn out, is that I will get my refund-hopefully as soon as the piece is returned.
: I know, that I could have had my machinest friend 'fix' the problem, but due to the severity of the situation and possibility that this isn't an isolated occurance, that the musket had to go back for further testing.
: What needed to be done, to repair the breeching, is that the barrel's threads needed to be re-cut, freshed out & deepened as they are rough, torn in appearance and uneven in diameter. They need to be deepened, to allow a liner to be threaded though the barrel, into the plug itself as the barrel wall is quite thin on these musket models, from the Shortland Pattern to the India Pattern and Seas Service Muskets, and would lack sufficient threads on a liner with les than perhaps 32 thread per inch, in my opinion. The new plug would have to be cut on a lathe as the threads are well over 7/8X14 size, but less than the next standard size. The threads on the plug would have to be cut off, then the new one's welded to the plug. The barrel's threads, being 1/10" deeper than on the plug presently, would have to be cut deeper by roughly 1/10" for the new lug's threads. A smaller internal hold would have to be bored int the 'new' plug, then a liner installed through the side of the barrel, into the new plug, to the bored centre. The threads, being cut properly, wouldn't leak and all would be well, for years and years- never a problem. UNfortunatley, most of us lack the machinerly or expertise to se this sort of thing through. This is what I was gong to do, until Robert told me to return it for refund as he seemed to be genuinely concerned.

:

 

[Musketeer]

Jeez, Daryl! You really know how to rain on a dude's parade, eh? You hoser! :crackup: But, seriously, this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I'm going to have to do quite a bit more research before I decide on a gun. Man, those pictures are scary! Thanks! :RO: :thumbsup:

 

[Keith]

Does[url] militaryheritage.com[/url] and loyalist arms or middlesex village use the same manufacturers?

 

I don't know if they use the same mfg'r. The Loyalist guns aren't as well polished I've read. Perhaps this means they are from another source - perhaps not. They look rougher in the photos to me. They may not all be breeched the same, but our modern steels strength covers up some wicked machining, I firmly believe. They may not blow for several years, or maybe decades, maybe never - who knows. The fact that the machining is as poor as it is, is also an indication of general workmanship and attention to detail. They got the locks right for sure, but the screws, etc, are poorly made compared to what we're used to.
; Some of the original guns were very poorly made themselves and if one of those is the one copied, what do you have? The India Patterns and Sea Services, along with the Shortland Patterns were 'cheaper' versions of the Longland pattern guns, which were too expensive to make throughout the 1700's. I see that Loyalist paints the Sea Service stocks- that would hide the wood, and fill in some inletting, for sure.
: Some look good from a distance, but close-up?

 

[Oregonjohn]

Hey. On my 1740s-50s Carbine from Loyalist Arms, the finish was pure doo-doo. When it just lightly rained or I got real sweaty hands, the reddish finish would come off on anything it touched. Don't know the kind of wood...really don't care. I took 'er apart, refinished the stock, and it looks pretty good now...plus, it don't run red when wet. The fit on my musket is outstanding over the whole rig and all the screws seem to be quality material. I guess my next order of business before shootin' again will be to pull the breech plug and check it out. This particular musket seems to be well built, well fit out, and shoots like a dream... others' mileage may vary of course. The polished barrel is nice and the bayonet I purchased separately needed only a small tweekin' with a file to get it to fit. I am pleased with the price, the quality, the way it looks, and the way it shoots. Who knows, maybe the next one shipped was a Corvair....mine is fine. After I check out the breech plug, I shall sing out and let you know what I find. It will be awhile though.
All the best,
John in Oregon :m2c:

 

Thanks- I am much interested. What model is yours? The important thing here, is length of threads compared to the length of thread INSIDE the bore- ie: what is the location of the vent? Is it in the bore, or in the threads? Measure the length of threads on the plug, then, with the calipers, measure the length of threads in the breech of the barrel. A proper breech is one that the end of the plug bears against the inside 'butt' of the bore where the threads start AND at the tang at the rear.
: Secondly, is there BP fouling in the threads? This would indicate poor fit between the plug's threads and the barrel's threads.
: Thirdly, is there a groove ground between the threads and the plug's plate- or is there a plate at all, or merely the tang with threads at the front?

 

[rexdevantier]

That's bordering on the lethal.Up until I got to the photo I thought not too bad, but that is BAD! I just wouldn't trust anything those guys made after seeing that.
Cheers, Rex Dev. :nono:

 

[davidthered]

:m2c: I had ordered the 1728 Long land from Loyalist Arms, but they took way too long to deliver (over 4 months!!!) that I called and switched my order to a Pedersoli 2nd model, and I'm glad I did!
I've heard a lot of people unhappy with the wood on the LA muskets, it's not walnut, it's not rosewood... who knows??
The 'clunkiness' of these muskets is actually a good representation of an actual Long Land. They were bigger and thicker than a 2nd Model (short land) but most people are trying to compare them with the short lands, and that ain't right.
Cabellas is selling Pedersoli 2nd model short land muskets for $750 US, so for a few dollars more, you can have the caddilac of muskets.

 

Uh huh- as long as it doesn't stick the the patch/rod/jag in the chamber area due to a short plug. This is my only misgiving about them. IT now appears they should all be pulled. If I hadn't done that to mine, I wouldn't have known - for a while, at least - perhaps.

 

[JimBrown]

greetings list,

Just wanted to post that Loyalist Arms is making their muskets, pistols, rifles, etc, in Hallifax Nova Scotia. They are NOT produced in India, and the shop in India casting & making parts is NOT the New Delhi Gun Works that D.G. & MIddlesex Village uses.
They have a separate contracted firm to produce their parts.
They are shipped to Nova Scotia where 8 men in a machine shop work & machine the parts, and wood to fit the guns together. They do all the finish work there.
And Yes you can also get "kits" to do your own work.
The wood is Rosewood, it is a common wood in India and is as strong as walnut but denser.
If somebody wants I can post the wood density values for the various woods used in gun making, but I can tell you that rosewood is much harder on the tests!
The stain they are now using has been changed to hold up better on the hard dense wood. I personally think that they are producing & sending out so many so fast because of the large orders that the "older" stain had not fully penetrated the dense wood & dried all the way down.
You have to realize that this firm has produced over 3000 muskets in that small shop in the last year, quite the output for a all "hand" machine shop.
Yes they stand behind their work, with a warranty on their products and you can acually talk to the owner and be reasonable with him with a problem, they even take suggestions on new products.

I am their New York Dealer for them representing them here in the USA, I am also their N.A. Parts dealer and I also supply Pedersoli parts through them as well.
Please feel free to ask me any questions about Loyalist Arms and their products, I am here in the USA for you folks.
Please feel free to contact at [email protected] or [email protected] my business e-mail address.
Thank-You
Jim Brown
a blackpowder shooter for 25+ years