Good to hear you're still alive and taking nourishment.
What say ye to the concern of the fitting of breech plugs on the current crop of Besses?
What say ye to the concern of the fitting of breech plugs on the current crop of Besses?
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Indian muskets?
- Thread starter Musketeer
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I got my Dragoon pistol from MVTC last week. 12" barrel in .665 cal. The gun is definitely somewhat rough in overall finish, but is very solid and sparks very well. I actually think the roughness of finish is probably more representative of what the original guns were like. If you look at other artifacts from the 18th century, they generally have an imperfect handmade look too. Anyhow, the mainspring is strong, the bore is mirror polished and the vent is centered at the top of the pan (perfect spot). I will probably buy a Bess from MVTC in the near future, and I have no reservations about their functionality. :thumbsup:
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my musket funtioned fine too., but the breech threads had only 22 thou of engagement :shocking: instead of 70 thou they should have had for such a large thread and the 22 thou was for 3 threads only,(again, shocking) the other thread having only 2 thou. engageement. These loose threads leaked badly, of course ::. The tang's flat plate was the only thing stopping the BP fouling from leaking at the breech. That is, the plate's tension against the barrel's rear surface (.120" circular) was the only thing keeping the charge's pressure in check. :nono: The threads were loaded with foulng as was the gouge at the plug's face plate.
: The question is, is this a dangerous situation or merely poor machining as hinted by Mil/Her. BP produces very low pressure in the big bores. A .45 or .50 cal would blow the stock to splinters if made the same as the Sea Service musket I bought. The loads I used might have produced 3,000 to 4,000LUP, not the 15,000LUP of normally loaded small bores.
: They refunded my money for the musket, rather than send me a better breeched barrel as they originally promised. Perhaps they couldn't find a normally breeched barrel. When contacted, they told me they'd run a 300gr. charge and 3 balls for a proof and let me know the results a I hadn't proofed it myself. I had only fired 3 dram loads with single balls. After they received the gun, they told me they'd proof it with 200gr. and 2 balls instead of previous load, and added that adding more balls and powder wouldn't increase the pressure :bull: :bull: :bull: - who the h-ll are they trying to BS? BTW- they haven't tried to contact me with the results as promised, either and I'm not sure I could believe their report if they did. They're very easy at dodging and state that good machining only comes in custom guns. I hope the so-called gun-smith they use, survived the testing, if they did it. He's the one who told them adding more powder wouldn't increase the pressure :crackup:. In other words, he's no BP gunsmith - at least not one with any knowledge of the subject. I guess if he works on BP guns, he's a BP gunsmith, eh? Seems to work for them.
; Making a new plug would have been difficult without a lathe as the threads were WAY over any normal size & indeed, had the appearance of being hand filed, not cut on a lathe, that's for sure. The inner threads of the barrel's breech end, were rough, torn & missing pieces of the threads. There was an 1/8"+ wide & deep gouge machined off the threads at the plate's face, which removed at least 2 threads that should have been there. There is no physical reason for this gouge.
: I was told these were so cheap, that they couldn't be made to better quality & that any better quality was a custom gun. For $500.00 US (($700.00+ CDN) I expected a resonable facsimle of a musket that wouldn't leak fouling to the end of the barrel, and that had proper threads on the plug, that fit properly. Am I out of order, here? A gun of the same quality as the Lyman GPR would have been GREAT! Well, Lyman's GPR is a CUSTOM gun in comparrison to these Indian guns and Lyman's are cheaper as well. Lyman wouldn't put out such a poor piece of machining - on that you can trust. Perhaps they'll make a .73 or .75 cal smoothbore trade gun for us if enough people contact them. I know I will, today.
; Here's the plug (picture)- has anyone ever seen a plug with this flat plate in front of the tang? Their rep said it was standard on the original's they used for patterns. I think it was added to keep some of the BP fouling inside the barrel. I had picked most of the fouling out of the threads, but some remains - the grey colour is fouling. Oh yes I re-checked the thread engagement, and the picture of measurments I have, says the plugs threads are .188" short of the barrel's thread mesurement. That's almost two tenths of an inch. [.542" for the plug, .730" for the barrel]. Only 3 threads are actually holding on the plug & supposedly keeping the fouling in front of the plug, btw. There are physically 4 threads, but the rear one has only /002" engagement. The others, the good ones, :crackup: with .022" engagement, are a laugh. It's like an 8X32 screw in a 10X32 hole.
How nice!
:
: The question is, is this a dangerous situation or merely poor machining as hinted by Mil/Her. BP produces very low pressure in the big bores. A .45 or .50 cal would blow the stock to splinters if made the same as the Sea Service musket I bought. The loads I used might have produced 3,000 to 4,000LUP, not the 15,000LUP of normally loaded small bores.
: They refunded my money for the musket, rather than send me a better breeched barrel as they originally promised. Perhaps they couldn't find a normally breeched barrel. When contacted, they told me they'd run a 300gr. charge and 3 balls for a proof and let me know the results a I hadn't proofed it myself. I had only fired 3 dram loads with single balls. After they received the gun, they told me they'd proof it with 200gr. and 2 balls instead of previous load, and added that adding more balls and powder wouldn't increase the pressure :bull: :bull: :bull: - who the h-ll are they trying to BS? BTW- they haven't tried to contact me with the results as promised, either and I'm not sure I could believe their report if they did. They're very easy at dodging and state that good machining only comes in custom guns. I hope the so-called gun-smith they use, survived the testing, if they did it. He's the one who told them adding more powder wouldn't increase the pressure :crackup:. In other words, he's no BP gunsmith - at least not one with any knowledge of the subject. I guess if he works on BP guns, he's a BP gunsmith, eh? Seems to work for them.
; Making a new plug would have been difficult without a lathe as the threads were WAY over any normal size & indeed, had the appearance of being hand filed, not cut on a lathe, that's for sure. The inner threads of the barrel's breech end, were rough, torn & missing pieces of the threads. There was an 1/8"+ wide & deep gouge machined off the threads at the plate's face, which removed at least 2 threads that should have been there. There is no physical reason for this gouge.
: I was told these were so cheap, that they couldn't be made to better quality & that any better quality was a custom gun. For $500.00 US (($700.00+ CDN) I expected a resonable facsimle of a musket that wouldn't leak fouling to the end of the barrel, and that had proper threads on the plug, that fit properly. Am I out of order, here? A gun of the same quality as the Lyman GPR would have been GREAT! Well, Lyman's GPR is a CUSTOM gun in comparrison to these Indian guns and Lyman's are cheaper as well. Lyman wouldn't put out such a poor piece of machining - on that you can trust. Perhaps they'll make a .73 or .75 cal smoothbore trade gun for us if enough people contact them. I know I will, today.
; Here's the plug (picture)- has anyone ever seen a plug with this flat plate in front of the tang? Their rep said it was standard on the original's they used for patterns. I think it was added to keep some of the BP fouling inside the barrel. I had picked most of the fouling out of the threads, but some remains - the grey colour is fouling. Oh yes I re-checked the thread engagement, and the picture of measurments I have, says the plugs threads are .188" short of the barrel's thread mesurement. That's almost two tenths of an inch. [.542" for the plug, .730" for the barrel]. Only 3 threads are actually holding on the plug & supposedly keeping the fouling in front of the plug, btw. There are physically 4 threads, but the rear one has only /002" engagement. The others, the good ones, :crackup: with .022" engagement, are a laugh. It's like an 8X32 screw in a 10X32 hole.
How nice! :
Most (non gunsmith) people would not pull the breech, so they were banking on the gouge going unseen...
Are you out of line for talking this way about them, NO!!!
It would be your face that took the breech if it failed, I'd say that would be just cause to point out the defects...
Your claims are supported by facts and pictures...
Could this be by chance that you got the only questionable one made, don't know until more than one is unbreeched and examined...
I don't know, but it seems like maybe Military Heritage is getting away with this because they only sell non-firing guns. They could certainly use this as a defense if the subject came up: "We produce non-firing replica guns. If a customer chooses to make the gun fireable, then they assume all liability." That sort of thing. Places Like MVTC and Loyalist who offer fully-functional arms would, I assume, be more concerned with problems like your breechplug and more responsive as well. After all, these folks have to take responsibility for shipping the customer a "functional" drilled-out gun, which implies that it will be safe to shoot with their recommended loads. Just a thought..... :thumbsup:
You're right about this; however, I think the "customer assumes all responsibility" might still apply.
I really don't know. I've never owned a Military Heritage gun, so I'm not in a position to comment on their quality or customer service. Daryl's pics and descriptions are pretty scary, but it's hard to know whether or not they're representative of ALL of MH's guns. :thumbsup:
Hopefully, Daryl's was an isolated case, he surely has proof of the workmanship used on his musket...
Time will tell whether or not the rest of their inventory is breeched the same, Daryl's advanced experience with muzzleloaders brought this to light, if anything, it could force them to redesign their breech plugs for future muskets...
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Personally, I am now very skeptical of ANY East Indian made guns. The overall quality is not as good as guns made elsewhere that cost much less. In other words, with no warrantee other than the importer's declared warrantee, virtually no new-parts supply other than the importer robbing parts from another gun, the purchaser is certainly taking a risk. On top of that is the poor machining - even the sling swivel's(through wood only) threads were so loose as to almost not engage the threads in the hoop. In this case, it looked exactly like an oversize 8X32 trying to fill an oversize 10X32 hole.
Daryl
Daryl
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Mr. Daryl,
If you would not mind my asking, did you get your refund?
Did they conduct the severe "Proof Testing"?
What is the recommended load for a "normal" proof test?
Your assistance in this matter is most appreciated as we are in need of a Sea Service Musket that will handle 100 to 120grs of 2F Goex with patched RB.
Best Wishes
If you would not mind my asking, did you get your refund?
Did they conduct the severe "Proof Testing"?
What is the recommended load for a "normal" proof test?
Your assistance in this matter is most appreciated as we are in need of a Sea Service Musket that will handle 100 to 120grs of 2F Goex with patched RB.
Best Wishes
I think i would suggest that you contact Middlesex Village Trading Co. about one. From what i have heard they are of better quality than Loyalist's and they come as a package with the fashguard, bayonet, sling, and hammerstall, for about the same, or a little less than the ones from Loyalist.
I checked the Middlesex website and they do not provide the names of the actual manufacturers but they seem to have a good return policy if the weapon is in new unfired condition. I suppose it couldn't hurt to buy one if they honor their policy, and if you check it out thoroughly before you shoot it.
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/aboutus.shtml
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/aboutus.shtml
Russ T Frizzen
70 Cal.
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There is an article on the Middlesex Village Bess Carbine in the latest issue of The Backwoodsman. The tester expressed a very positive opinion of the gun. Doesn't say where it was made, though.
This is not a gun shop but a music instrument factory
I think it is still interesting .
http://www.mid-east.com.pk
click on " factory view !
Henry
I think it is still interesting .
http://www.mid-east.com.pk
click on " factory view !
Henry
Last month I purchased a Long Land first pattern from Military Heritage.I read the posts about the breaching and took it to my muzzle loading gunsmith friend who has breached many rifles over the past thirty years.He has since removed the plug and has reported to me that it is OK.Although,the stock is a little on the rough side the only problem that he has found is that the backside of the hammer neck is missing the lockplate in on its way down.We are thinking about welding some metal to the back of the hammer and then filing it down.Does anyone else have a better way to do this?
Musketeer, were you pretty satisfied with your dealings with MVTC? It sounds like you were happy with your Dragoon. I've got parts for 3 rifles and a trade gun on the way, so the last thing I need is another smoothbore. Having said that I'm sure I'll be looking into one of their 3rd model Bess's in the near future, soon as I sell off another cartridge gun. Or sell something else.
It sounds like they are the company of choice to deal with for inexpensive smoothbores.
Thanks,
It sounds like they are the company of choice to deal with for inexpensive smoothbores.
Thanks,
Guest
WindWalker- Sorry this reply is so long coming.
: They gave me the refund without any further problems. They, however did not contact me as they said they would, after testing the barrel. Due to the loose breeching, I'd expect the first test of 2 balls and 200gr. 2F to show leakage around the breech flash-washer or plate, as that piece's tightness against the back edge of the barrel was all that was keeping the fouling from blowing out the sides.
: The common proof-test is a double charge and 2 balls. They told me they were going to proof it with 300gr. and 2 balls, but reduced that to 200gr. and 2 balls, and attempted to tell me, 300gr. wouldn't increase the pressure any more than 200gr. They were either merely atempting to lie to me, or they and their Gunsmith just don't know anything about BP and it's burning/pressure curves.
: I would suggest the plug be pulled after the proofing loads to see how far back up the breech threads, the fouling has blown,if any. If it fouls back to the flash-washer or plate, I'd not shoot the gun with any load until it was repaired with a new plug, new threads in barrel and plug.
: They gave me the refund without any further problems. They, however did not contact me as they said they would, after testing the barrel. Due to the loose breeching, I'd expect the first test of 2 balls and 200gr. 2F to show leakage around the breech flash-washer or plate, as that piece's tightness against the back edge of the barrel was all that was keeping the fouling from blowing out the sides.
: The common proof-test is a double charge and 2 balls. They told me they were going to proof it with 300gr. and 2 balls, but reduced that to 200gr. and 2 balls, and attempted to tell me, 300gr. wouldn't increase the pressure any more than 200gr. They were either merely atempting to lie to me, or they and their Gunsmith just don't know anything about BP and it's burning/pressure curves.
: I would suggest the plug be pulled after the proofing loads to see how far back up the breech threads, the fouling has blown,if any. If it fouls back to the flash-washer or plate, I'd not shoot the gun with any load until it was repaired with a new plug, new threads in barrel and plug.
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