Inlay and decoration in the pre flintlock era

[TobJohn]

Hmmm... "After your short arms tour of England," ... I'm surprised someone in this group hasn't run with it.

I am short and I do have arms!

 

[Sam squanch]

Not everyone may know what a “ short arm” inspection is…..

 

[TobJohn]

Not everyone may know what a “ short arm” inspection is…..

Thank you for the context. I have learned something new lol

Luckily, I didn’t find any venereal diseases while in the UK.

 

[Sam squanch]

I told my sergeant that both my arms were the same length…….

 

[ChrisPer]

The first one with the 'pattern of raised bumps' should be understood as checkering.
It is much coarser checkering than we are used to, but it looks like excellent for retention as you handle it - eg reloading on horseback.

 

[Rudyard]

And not just for deliberate decoration! He had that great thread about how many barrels in the 1500s had that red lead paint on them to prevent rust.

Its a bummer brass/bronze barrels are so impractical to make now because they are also such a key part of the decoration and aesthetic of the era.

I don't think brass ,latten or bronze is impractical today Not ruleing out Pactung though Ive never used it .Richard Colten was casting pistol barrels in brass or bronze years ago . I've seen what I think where a Getz barrel of rifle length . It might be dear but its 'do able' What is oddly rare is finding a 'Brass founder' who will run' Yellow brass' the zink fumes are potentially harmfull . But my old founders ran it regularly in the old Jimmy Dixons' Cornish Place' Sheffield factory , gives you an ague like feeling but didn't
kill them or me as I watched the pour of my mounts. What they did do was shut all the Georgian windows over looking the River Don lest a squall blast wet into the flasks
.Re the bone inlay Pukka says it all. Re the bumps it looks a bit like a sort of checkering .I think its sort of akin to a sculptors advise of chipping off all the marble that dosn't look like the Boy David .
Being slightly jocular
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

I don't think brass ,latten or bronze is impractical today Not ruleing out Pactung though Ive never used it .Richard Colten was casting pistol barrels in brass or bronze years ago . I've seen what I think where a Getz barrel of rifle length . It might be dear but its 'do able' What is oddly rare is finding a 'Brass founder' who will run' Yellow brass' the zink fumes are potentially harmfull . But my old founders ran it regularly in the old Jimmy Dixons' Cornish Place' Sheffield factory , gives you an ague like feeling but didn't
kill them or me as I watched the pour of my mounts. What they did do was shut all the Georgian windows over looking the River Don lest a squall blast wet into the flasks
.Re the bone inlay Pukka says it all. Re the bumps it looks a bit like a sort of checkering .I think its sort of akin to a sculptors advise of chipping off all the marble that dosn't look like the Boy David .
Being slightly jocular
Regards Rudyard

I did end up finding some videos of people casting small bronze cannon barrels in their back yard. It did look doable, just extremely dangerous if you do not know what you are doing.

 

[Rudyard]

I did end up finding some videos of people casting small bronze cannon barrels in their back yard. It did look doable, just extremely dangerous if you do not know what you are doing.

Ide describe it as a bit hairy, but I wouldn't say its that dangerous once the founder has the experience .I've not poured any just watched it often enough . Great threads you have brought about a true' Student of arms ,De Witt Bailey considered him self that and modestly put it on his letterheads .The more we learn the more we find we cant possibly know the half of such a vast subject .

Reminds me of a story of some expert on fish was asked to give a lecture on fish . He replied that the subject was so great he couldn't possibly give such a talk but might be prepared to give a series of talks on a fish scale !.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

The Swedish Royal Armouries have a collection of wheellock petronels. They provide a great example of late 1500s decoration, as well as how guns can be damaged. A great insight from having multiple, is that they show how fragile petronel style stocks can be.
View attachment 213128
View attachment 213129
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View attachment 213132Notice that despite the metal reinforcement on the stock, the stocks break off inline with the grain. I had been wondering if petronels only used wood with a suitable grain, but this provides a great example of how even on extremely expensive guns, they used wood with a straight grain.

An additional interesting detail is how the trigger guard goes through the eye of the bolt that holds the metal reinforcing to the wood stock.

For the decoration itself, the guns use multicolored inlay to show hunting scenes.
View attachment 213134
View attachment 213135

Also the same as the puffers’ style of lions, made by an artist who had never seen a lion:
View attachment 213136
View attachment 213137

 

[TobJohn]

Ide describe it as a bit hairy, but I wouldn't say its that dangerous once the founder has the experience .I've not poured any just watched it often enough . Great threads you have brought about a true' Student of arms ,De Witt Bailey considered him self that and modestly put it on his letterheads .The more we learn the more we find we cant possibly know the half of such a vast subject .

Reminds me of a story of some expert on fish was asked to give a lecture on fish . He replied that the subject was so great he couldn't possibly give such a talk but might be prepared to give a series of talks on a fish scale !.
Regards Rudyard

I actually recently got a book by him, Aspects Of Dutch Gunmaking.

Your second paragraph is spot on. I’m currently doing some research on Italian wheellocks and every question answered creates two more.

 

[Rudyard]

Re the Petronel while mindful of the fragility of that deep toe I made my last example as the walnut plank had the natural curve of the grain it positively yelled "Stock me "!. So I did probably too small so evolved a style of hold much like a Japanese cheek hold most recoiling checked per cheek stock well locked by the grip of my extended fore arm left handed . Then once I figured out how not the get the thumb into my nose it shot quite as well as users of such items have any right to expect .& enough to think to plug a smaller insert hole into the current larger tube rear sight .Will this create a huge demand for such arms ? , Nhaa don't think so ,Just my study of new ways backwards .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Short arm inspection? FIRST thing that needs to be done at the "girls swim team". THAT would clear up ANY question about gender.

 

[TobJohn]

A question that can go in this thread or the Ottoman one:

Is there any evidence of Ottoman influence in the styling of European firearms? I was wondering about it because 17th century western European cavalry adopted ottoman style helmets (various forms of the lobster pot) and some of their melee weapons were also influenced by them. However, the guns seem completely separate.

 

[TobJohn]

Ide describe it as a bit hairy, but I wouldn't say its that dangerous once the founder has the experience

The second video I found had the guy spill half his bucket (not sure of the correct term) of molten bronze on wet concreate. I can be a bit of a dumb@ss, but even I know to avoid that. I will not link because I do not want to embarrass the guy.

This one looks more like they know what they are doing, and they are trying to use 15th century techniques:

 

[PhDBrewer]

Is there any evidence of Ottoman influence in the styling of European firearms?

I think so...
Many of my Hirschfänger have cabalistic & ottoman influence in the engraving & style.

The "1690 German holster pistol" triggerguard from TRS has a skirted native or Ottoman pictured. Looks like a Mayan ball player except they could not touch the ball or it was death. So, maybe it is an engravers take on an Ottoman...
I have seen more examples, just do not have access at the moment.... William

 

[TobJohn]

I think so...
Many of my Hirschfänger have cabalistic & ottoman influence in the engraving & style.
View attachment 236686
The "1690 German holster pistol" triggerguard from TRS has a skirted native or Ottoman pictured. Looks like a Mayan ball player except they could not touch the ball or it was death. So, maybe it is an engravers take on an Ottoman...
I have seen more examples, just do not have access at the moment.... William

Very interesting that they are on those daggers. Seems very random for them to have ottoman portraits on hunting daggers.

There is an entire category of Austrian firearms using captured ottoman barrels, which I am not sure I would consider "influenced" because they are more of trophies.

 

[PhDBrewer]

I am of the opinion that the Ottomans were considered "mystical". Cabalistic imagery & writing on the weapon made them more powerful.

 

[TobJohn]

I am of the opinion that the Ottomans were considered "mystical". Cabalistic imagery & writing on the weapon made them more powerful.

That is an interesting idea. Imperial, and then other western, cavalry adopted ottoman style equipment, which could be a sign of respect. One book I recently read on 16th and 17th century cavalry warfare made the claim that imperial cavalry were frequently inferior in the melee with Ottoman cavalry, so that can be an example of them trying to emulate their power.

 

[Shotgunblast]

I think so...
Many of my Hirschfänger have cabalistic & ottoman influence in the engraving & style.
View attachment 236686
The "1690 German holster pistol" triggerguard from TRS has a skirted native or Ottoman pictured. Looks like a Mayan ball player except they could not touch the ball or it was death. So, maybe it is an engravers take on an Ottoman...
I have seen more examples, just do not have access at the moment.... William

That's not a ball, but a chakram.

Deadly Frisbee's

 

[JBrandon]

A question that can go in this thread or the Ottoman one:

Is there any evidence of Ottoman influence in the styling of European firearms? I was wondering about it because 17th century western European cavalry adopted ottoman style helmets (various forms of the lobster pot) and some of their melee weapons were also influenced by them. However, the guns seem completely separate.

The Ottoman military bands (mehter) had considerable influence on European 18th C and earlier military bands, and also on classical composers like Beethoven.