bldtrailer
Pilgrim
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inlay practice
- Thread starter bldtrailer
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I'd like to do an inlay on one of my rifles. I'm no wood carver. Afraid to to a hack job on my gun.
That looks good!! I wish I had a silver Hunter’s Star in my stock, but I’d ruin it with my luck.
Hi....All my Bucks County LRs have a "leafy" cheek star which is made from 1/16" thick sterling silver allowing 1 center screw to retain it. The star is laid out and most of the excess silver is hacksawed off. A file completes the star design. Next thing is to file "draft" on all the edges. The center screw hole is put in the star and the star's location is determined and the star is formed to the stock contour using wooden blocks. The "draft" changes after forming so the draft is refiled and the star is screwed down at the desired attitude.
A sharp pointed knife {I use an Exacto knife w/ a slight radius at the tip of the blade} outlines the star making sure the blade tip is at the bottom of the draft. The knife or small chisel then removes the wood inside the outline cut. The center wood is removed to not quite full depth and the edges and bottom of the of the star are coated w/ a spotting compound and wood is removed at the "spots". This is repeated until the star's bottom hits the wood. Then it's simply removing wood at the "spots" until full depth is achieved. I prefer to have the star and wood even and use a rounded riffler file to make it flush. The star is screwed down and checked for being flush. .....Fred
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Pretty crude inlays, too bulky and dented I would have left them off, however, it is your gun and you should do what YOU like and not pay any attention to my narrow minded opinion.
That’s beautiful!
Col. Batguano
75 Cal.
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Be careful when filing much of a "draft" on your inlays. I know the books tell you to do it. If it leaves a gap between the metal and the wood below the contact point, as you are taking BOTH the metal and wood down in an attempt to level things, that gap will emerge and present itself. If you fill it with epoxy (as many do) to get good seating, that will be a big ugly black line around your inlay.
Also, if you are using epoxy, remember to scuff up the underside of the inlay so the epoxy can find a way to grab hold. Something like an engraving graver will do the trick, and make sure to leave the burrs sticking out underneath..
Also, if you are using epoxy, remember to scuff up the underside of the inlay so the epoxy can find a way to grab hold. Something like an engraving graver will do the trick, and make sure to leave the burrs sticking out underneath..
bldtrailer
Pilgrim
Yup that's why I called it "practice"
I have to start some place, If I don't try I don't learn. I wasn't born with carving talent like some here.
. your opinions are part of the learning curve .
The north star /big dipper theam is due to my son spending time in Alaska for his 1st job after college (his gun with the wolf). I tried a different way to set the wolf wanting to look aged. Thin brass easier to cut with the tools I presently have (snips)next time thicker brass (jewalers saw) and counter sinking the rivits/nails, like the star on red rifle. the big dippers nails were left proud to stand out. the main practice was removing wood and trying to stay in outlines .
The above are some of the other hand projects I've made. I'm trying to branch out into rifle building for my own, soooo Practice on what I need before turning a $1000 kit into $400 wreck . so red kit given to me last xmas made for grandson traditions Kentucky made the most of it .the other is Lyman gpr I'm waiting on Mr Hoyt to rebore to 54 for Co hunting and wanted to make a one of
kind for my son good or bad>>>--> For his Co elk hunting (gain twist)
some things I do well others not so much =PRACTICE
I have to start some place, If I don't try I don't learn. I wasn't born with carving talent like some here.
. your opinions are part of the learning curve .
The north star /big dipper theam is due to my son spending time in Alaska for his 1st job after college (his gun with the wolf). I tried a different way to set the wolf wanting to look aged. Thin brass easier to cut with the tools I presently have (snips)next time thicker brass (jewalers saw) and counter sinking the rivits/nails, like the star on red rifle. the big dippers nails were left proud to stand out. the main practice was removing wood and trying to stay in outlines .
The above are some of the other hand projects I've made. I'm trying to branch out into rifle building for my own, soooo Practice on what I need before turning a $1000 kit into $400 wreck . so red kit given to me last xmas made for grandson traditions Kentucky made the most of it .the other is Lyman gpr I'm waiting on Mr Hoyt to rebore to 54 for Co hunting and wanted to make a one of
kind for my son good or bad>>>--> For his Co elk hunting (gain twist) some things I do well others not so much =PRACTICE
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bldtrailer
Pilgrim
Vaino &
Col. Batguano
Thank you between your advise and Mr Dixons input I'll get there >>-> rifle build
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I don't depend om epoxy adhesion for inlays....the constant expansion and shrinking of the wood may cause the inlay to loosen. A small screw can be used w/ thicker inlays as w/ the cheek star in my previous post. For thinner inlays small dia. barbed pins are better either w/ round or ctsk heads. Epoxy used as backing along w/ the pins can be used but then I take a sharp "V" needle file and cut a groove into some lengths of the inlay edges and the epoxy locks into them...in fact doing this doesn't really require the barbed pins to attach the inlay, but I still use the pins because it's HC.
Seeing most inlays are inletted into curved surfaces {both concave and convex}, the amount of draft can be tricky to ascertain. ...in fact on a convex surface, just bending the inlay supplies the draft whereas bending an inlay for a concave surface requires more draft......Fred
Seeing most inlays are inletted into curved surfaces {both concave and convex}, the amount of draft can be tricky to ascertain. ...in fact on a convex surface, just bending the inlay supplies the draft whereas bending an inlay for a concave surface requires more draft......Fred
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bldtrailer
Pilgrim
I forgot to say the wolf was copy the ball block
Ihim made as a set
Ihim made as a set
That’s also beautiful!
bldtrailer
Pilgrim
I need to proof read >>>--> the brass wolf is copied from the ball block I made for him as a set
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A few things come to mind reading through these posts that hopefully help some newer people out:
-Just buy a scrap block of maple to practice on, clamp it in a vise and inlet the heck out of it. Call up wherever you by your ML parts from and ask for a scrap block of maple for inlet practice. Inletting is the single most important skill to have going into a build, everything is inletting something into wood so make sure you are dialed in with practice and understand how to sharpen your chisels before you start a build.
-Create a pattern out of paper and glue it with some wood glue to a sheet of whatever metal you're using. It just has to hold good enough to saw out and then it gets burned off in the first annealing. The advantage to a paper pattern is it is easy to bend around and fit to the rifle to get the exact shape and proportions you want before cutting it out of brass or whatever you're using. If you can acquire tracings of originals or shapes you want to incorporate into other builds then cut the pattern out of card board and save them in an altoids can or something and just transfer those to the paper.
-The purpose of the draft is to clean up the outside of the part, and also for when you're tracing it on the wood with an exacto knife that the cut line is just slightly inside the actual border of the part. This way you can slowly walk the part in and up to the actual border without your cuts going outside it. It also acts as a cork in that the deeper it goes the tighter it gets. You don't need much of a draft but it is crucial on just about everything you inlet.
-The purpose of that exacto knife outline is to act as a guide to follow up with a series of stabbing cuts straight down with your chisels and gouges that deepen it and create a border to prevent chip out. This part is a little tricky to get the hang of because you will encounter complex curves that none of your gouge profiles will match, you can get either a very very narrow chisel or a narrow shallow gouge (a #4 for example) and follow any curve with practice and have it one tight flowing line. You have to rock it back and forth inside the xacto cut always keeping the tail of the chisel or gouge inside the cut line to keep a consistent line and bend the stab with your wrist as you rock it to follow the curves. It's difficult to explain in text but sort of think of the center of the tool as a fulcrum point that you are rocking back and forth to draw a line that flows around the curve. Some experienced builders will create this border entirely with an xacto knife but newer builders will tend to just make mushy blown out inlets with just an exacto knife and not using the chisel stabbings. Furthermore, chasing an xacto cut with a chisel stab is great practice for other things as well.
-The key to consistency is that you return the part to the exact same spot on the rifle every time you go to get a transfer marking. Any slight deviation will cause sloppy inlets. For most things you're inletting, you drill ideally two of the final holes for the part and use sacrificial screws or tacks to return the part to the exact same spot for the initial xacto tracing and every time you return the part to get a transfer reading. Don't drive them in all the way, just enough to hold the part firmly against the wood.
-You need to be able to read your transfer markings, this is another area where practice comes in handy. Markings will transfer to the wood where the part is fitting perfectly and to where wood needs to be removed. A common example of this is if you have marking all around the edge of the inlet and only some at the bottom on the inlet, remove the little bit from the bottom and leave the edge alone, get another marking and wait till you can not see any marking on the bottom before considering the sides of the inlet. Every scenario is different but this is just an example, learn what the marking compound is telling you.
-It's hard to tell but the tacks from the picture look like generic hardware store tacks? You should make your own tacks, it's easy and looks better. 1/16 brass pin stock, clip off a very tiny bit of it, vise it up, file a sharp tip on one side and peen a flat head on the other side. They'll clean up a lot nicer and look better. It doesn't take much to drive them, gentle taps on the head with the ball side of a ball peen to try to avoid divots in the part. One thing every builder should have is a hand vise, get a vintage one off ebay for 25 bucks or get lucky and find one at a flea market. They are amazingly handy for so many different tasks.
-You anneal brass and german silver to soften it up and it will work harden as you tap it in and out of the inlet with a hammer, just go back and anneal it again to soften it back up. This will help it to match the contours of the piece and the brass will work harden out of shape and you have to anneal it to work it back into shape. You can use a small block of scrap hardwood to reduce marring and deformation of the part, which will happen, on everything and will need to get cleaned up in the final part of the build, but try to minimize it early on. The other nice part of annealing brass or german silver is if your inlets get just a little bit sloppy then you can peen them out a little bit to tighten up a problem spot, it won't work as a cure all but it will improve an area you messed up just a slight bit.
- If you do completely blow out an inlet and decide to acraglas it up then make sure you go easy with the dye, try to match it up to the same color of the pre stained wood or even lighter would be better. It will take stain to some degree and you'll avoid those dark miss colored areas. Remember to use the release agent.
-You used far too many tacks for the big inlet, assumedly to hold down areas that were rising up on you. If you look at originals then it's almost always the fewest bare minimum to get a good fit, it's just more appealing to the eye. After you are satisfied with your inletting job, but before you tack it down, you want to very gently and very lightly give the brass part a tiny bend, lengthwise down the center for example but it varies so experiment a little, what this does is as you're pushing down on the part to get an idea about the final fit and where to put the tacks, the part will spring out and grab into the the wood border instead of raising up so much. You have to tweak it a little until it works, gentle bend, push down on it a bit to see how the part will respond to a tack or screw, if if grips the side or springs up in that area, and just keep tweaking it gently until satisfied.
-The purpose of gluing the backside of an inlet is that it creates a wood to metal gasket on things like escucheons and such that will likely never get removed. You will never have glue lines if the part is fit properly. Usually I use titebond 2 for it just for the convenience but I will go the extra step and use a two part epoxy for anything that's going to come in contact with my face.
-The wire inlays you attempted is a completely different animal altogether and should probably be answered in its own thread by hopefully some of the experts here, yeah, good luck with that part, I've got nothin' for ya there.
I think I got most of the high points covered, sorry about the length, this was just going to be a few pointers that spiraled into this and now I'm at point of no return so...Happy Building!
-Just buy a scrap block of maple to practice on, clamp it in a vise and inlet the heck out of it. Call up wherever you by your ML parts from and ask for a scrap block of maple for inlet practice. Inletting is the single most important skill to have going into a build, everything is inletting something into wood so make sure you are dialed in with practice and understand how to sharpen your chisels before you start a build.
-Create a pattern out of paper and glue it with some wood glue to a sheet of whatever metal you're using. It just has to hold good enough to saw out and then it gets burned off in the first annealing. The advantage to a paper pattern is it is easy to bend around and fit to the rifle to get the exact shape and proportions you want before cutting it out of brass or whatever you're using. If you can acquire tracings of originals or shapes you want to incorporate into other builds then cut the pattern out of card board and save them in an altoids can or something and just transfer those to the paper.
-The purpose of the draft is to clean up the outside of the part, and also for when you're tracing it on the wood with an exacto knife that the cut line is just slightly inside the actual border of the part. This way you can slowly walk the part in and up to the actual border without your cuts going outside it. It also acts as a cork in that the deeper it goes the tighter it gets. You don't need much of a draft but it is crucial on just about everything you inlet.
-The purpose of that exacto knife outline is to act as a guide to follow up with a series of stabbing cuts straight down with your chisels and gouges that deepen it and create a border to prevent chip out. This part is a little tricky to get the hang of because you will encounter complex curves that none of your gouge profiles will match, you can get either a very very narrow chisel or a narrow shallow gouge (a #4 for example) and follow any curve with practice and have it one tight flowing line. You have to rock it back and forth inside the xacto cut always keeping the tail of the chisel or gouge inside the cut line to keep a consistent line and bend the stab with your wrist as you rock it to follow the curves. It's difficult to explain in text but sort of think of the center of the tool as a fulcrum point that you are rocking back and forth to draw a line that flows around the curve. Some experienced builders will create this border entirely with an xacto knife but newer builders will tend to just make mushy blown out inlets with just an exacto knife and not using the chisel stabbings. Furthermore, chasing an xacto cut with a chisel stab is great practice for other things as well.
-The key to consistency is that you return the part to the exact same spot on the rifle every time you go to get a transfer marking. Any slight deviation will cause sloppy inlets. For most things you're inletting, you drill ideally two of the final holes for the part and use sacrificial screws or tacks to return the part to the exact same spot for the initial xacto tracing and every time you return the part to get a transfer reading. Don't drive them in all the way, just enough to hold the part firmly against the wood.
-You need to be able to read your transfer markings, this is another area where practice comes in handy. Markings will transfer to the wood where the part is fitting perfectly and to where wood needs to be removed. A common example of this is if you have marking all around the edge of the inlet and only some at the bottom on the inlet, remove the little bit from the bottom and leave the edge alone, get another marking and wait till you can not see any marking on the bottom before considering the sides of the inlet. Every scenario is different but this is just an example, learn what the marking compound is telling you.
-It's hard to tell but the tacks from the picture look like generic hardware store tacks? You should make your own tacks, it's easy and looks better. 1/16 brass pin stock, clip off a very tiny bit of it, vise it up, file a sharp tip on one side and peen a flat head on the other side. They'll clean up a lot nicer and look better. It doesn't take much to drive them, gentle taps on the head with the ball side of a ball peen to try to avoid divots in the part. One thing every builder should have is a hand vise, get a vintage one off ebay for 25 bucks or get lucky and find one at a flea market. They are amazingly handy for so many different tasks.
-You anneal brass and german silver to soften it up and it will work harden as you tap it in and out of the inlet with a hammer, just go back and anneal it again to soften it back up. This will help it to match the contours of the piece and the brass will work harden out of shape and you have to anneal it to work it back into shape. You can use a small block of scrap hardwood to reduce marring and deformation of the part, which will happen, on everything and will need to get cleaned up in the final part of the build, but try to minimize it early on. The other nice part of annealing brass or german silver is if your inlets get just a little bit sloppy then you can peen them out a little bit to tighten up a problem spot, it won't work as a cure all but it will improve an area you messed up just a slight bit.
- If you do completely blow out an inlet and decide to acraglas it up then make sure you go easy with the dye, try to match it up to the same color of the pre stained wood or even lighter would be better. It will take stain to some degree and you'll avoid those dark miss colored areas. Remember to use the release agent.
-You used far too many tacks for the big inlet, assumedly to hold down areas that were rising up on you. If you look at originals then it's almost always the fewest bare minimum to get a good fit, it's just more appealing to the eye. After you are satisfied with your inletting job, but before you tack it down, you want to very gently and very lightly give the brass part a tiny bend, lengthwise down the center for example but it varies so experiment a little, what this does is as you're pushing down on the part to get an idea about the final fit and where to put the tacks, the part will spring out and grab into the the wood border instead of raising up so much. You have to tweak it a little until it works, gentle bend, push down on it a bit to see how the part will respond to a tack or screw, if if grips the side or springs up in that area, and just keep tweaking it gently until satisfied.
-The purpose of gluing the backside of an inlet is that it creates a wood to metal gasket on things like escucheons and such that will likely never get removed. You will never have glue lines if the part is fit properly. Usually I use titebond 2 for it just for the convenience but I will go the extra step and use a two part epoxy for anything that's going to come in contact with my face.
-The wire inlays you attempted is a completely different animal altogether and should probably be answered in its own thread by hopefully some of the experts here, yeah, good luck with that part, I've got nothin' for ya there.
I think I got most of the high points covered, sorry about the length, this was just going to be a few pointers that spiraled into this and now I'm at point of no return so...Happy Building!
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Just a couple important addendums as I missed the edit window on my last post:
I meant to say good luck with wire inlays because they're a bit tricky but it sounded like I was disparaging the helpfulness of the members here, which I was not. The members here all seem very helpful, wire inlays are a bit tricky so good luck with that part.
The second thing is that every part and process in the build will have it's own quirks to contend with but a common one especially with new builders is inletting the breach plug. If you look at the rear of a breech plug on the bottom as it transitions up to the bottom of the tang you will commonly see it curved there. This is the result of the machining process. Now you are going to want to put a slight draft on all the sides in preparation of inletting but while doing that take that curve out the bottom by squaring it up with a vixen file. This way you have a sharp corner in that transition instead of a curve. The reason for this is twofold: one it will make it easier to inlet the breach plug, and two you will have to eventually bend the tang to match the slope of the wrist. If you do not square up that curved area underneath the tang then it will cause a hump to form on the top face of the tang when you bend it, then you see most new builders file down the hump and the tang gets too flimsy and it's bad form. Usually you will see this when you remove a barrel from someone else's rifle and the tang gets really narrow right behind the block and then fattens up towards the tail, you can just look down under that area and see they didn't square up the corner underneath.
A vixen file is basically a rasp for metal.
I meant to say good luck with wire inlays because they're a bit tricky but it sounded like I was disparaging the helpfulness of the members here, which I was not. The members here all seem very helpful, wire inlays are a bit tricky so good luck with that part.
The second thing is that every part and process in the build will have it's own quirks to contend with but a common one especially with new builders is inletting the breach plug. If you look at the rear of a breech plug on the bottom as it transitions up to the bottom of the tang you will commonly see it curved there. This is the result of the machining process. Now you are going to want to put a slight draft on all the sides in preparation of inletting but while doing that take that curve out the bottom by squaring it up with a vixen file. This way you have a sharp corner in that transition instead of a curve. The reason for this is twofold: one it will make it easier to inlet the breach plug, and two you will have to eventually bend the tang to match the slope of the wrist. If you do not square up that curved area underneath the tang then it will cause a hump to form on the top face of the tang when you bend it, then you see most new builders file down the hump and the tang gets too flimsy and it's bad form. Usually you will see this when you remove a barrel from someone else's rifle and the tang gets really narrow right behind the block and then fattens up towards the tail, you can just look down under that area and see they didn't square up the corner underneath.
A vixen file is basically a rasp for metal.
Lighten up Eric. Comment seems a little too harsh. Not everyone is as perfect as you are.
Col. Batguano
75 Cal.
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The tab on the back of the plug is longer than it needs to be, and it just adds unnecessary weight. You can use a grinder to accomplish that task and it will also take out the curve in the tang. Resist the urge to undercut the tang with a hack saw so you can start the bend sooner. You could certainly file it a bit, but beware that undercut when bending the tang. It could become a fulcrum and serve to break off the whole top part of the tang. Tangs as they come are about 1/4" thick. You really only need about 1/8" so the part you can't bend you can certainly file thinner (from the top side when you're taking out the breech hump).
As Fred said, he uses thick 1/16" sterling silver for his cheek inlays. It's pretty thick, and WILL be somewhat challenging to bend, but it certainly can be done. That gives him a goodly margin to file it thinner once it's inlet. The other nice thing about sterling is that it engraves really nicely. Much easier than brass.
I made the mistake of using .040" thick nickel-silver on my last build for the cheek star (it was rather large) , and as I was contouring that rather complex shape, I filed right through it and made a big ugly hole. The only fix at that point was to rip it out and make a new one. Sheet sterling cuts pretty easy with a jeweler's saw, but make sure you buy a bunch of extra blades because they're really easy to break. I made it out of .050" thick sterling this time, and slightly larger than the previous piece just so I could cut the inlet to the part, rather than try to make an exact fit for the existing hole. It was just easier that way.
I tried and tried and tried to make round headed sterling nails and just couldn't get the hang of it with copper, so I did it the easy way and bought some sterling silver earring studs from Rio Grande Jewelry Supply. The heads are a little smaller than I wanted, (for the cheek star) but they were close enough for me. They were just the right size for barrel wedge estrucheon plates and my thumb piece though.
As Fred said, he uses thick 1/16" sterling silver for his cheek inlays. It's pretty thick, and WILL be somewhat challenging to bend, but it certainly can be done. That gives him a goodly margin to file it thinner once it's inlet. The other nice thing about sterling is that it engraves really nicely. Much easier than brass.
I made the mistake of using .040" thick nickel-silver on my last build for the cheek star (it was rather large) , and as I was contouring that rather complex shape, I filed right through it and made a big ugly hole. The only fix at that point was to rip it out and make a new one. Sheet sterling cuts pretty easy with a jeweler's saw, but make sure you buy a bunch of extra blades because they're really easy to break. I made it out of .050" thick sterling this time, and slightly larger than the previous piece just so I could cut the inlet to the part, rather than try to make an exact fit for the existing hole. It was just easier that way.
I tried and tried and tried to make round headed sterling nails and just couldn't get the hang of it with copper, so I did it the easy way and bought some sterling silver earring studs from Rio Grande Jewelry Supply. The heads are a little smaller than I wanted, (for the cheek star) but they were close enough for me. They were just the right size for barrel wedge estrucheon plates and my thumb piece though.
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Agree with Eric. Not an insult nor was he too harsh, he just offered an honest evaluation. In my opinion, the inlays themselves and the inletting for them need work. But as the OP stated with the topic title, this is an ‘inlay practice’ project. Everyone has to start somewhere. Imagine the OP will review critiques and improve his technique. Cheerleading inferior or poor output doesn’t help some improve their skill level.
GANGGREEN
45 Cal.
I've begun to do small inlays on turkey call paddles as a means of practicing my inletting skills. I'm still not great at it, but I've only done it a handful of times and I presume this is good practice that won't destroy an expensive project that I've been working on for weeks or months. I'm still not great at it, but I'll get there.
My point is, sometimes people add something to a rifle on an impulse that detracts from the rifles appearance rather than enhances it, you see it all the time.
As far as being perfect, I am far from it, so far that I don't carve my rifles because all my practice attempts come up short and just look amateurish. My plain rifles look pretty good so I don't yuck them up with my bad carving.
Things I have seen done on impulse;
The worst was a guy who striped his entire rifle with 2" wide black stripes from stem to stern like a barber pole with a blow torch because he "liked it".
Another was going to inlay a subway token from the early 20th century on the wrist of his fine Lancaster rifle because his grandmother was born the same year and it would remind him of her.
And the worst of the worst; you see an attractive lady from the back in a store, dressed to the nines and obviously with some fashion sense. You get closer, she stops and turns around and you can see she is covered up with death metal tattoos, neck and all. YUCK
Here is the thing, no matter how bad someone's work is a bunch of of guys will always chime in with "work of art " or some other congratulatory nonsense and then get mad at you if you tell the truth and point out what it clearly visible to anyone who knows good work.
I am of the generation that didn't get a trophy for just showing up, I suspect a lot of the guys who jump on me for telling the truth did or perhaps they just don't like honest people.
As far as being perfect, I am far from it, so far that I don't carve my rifles because all my practice attempts come up short and just look amateurish. My plain rifles look pretty good so I don't yuck them up with my bad carving.
Things I have seen done on impulse;
The worst was a guy who striped his entire rifle with 2" wide black stripes from stem to stern like a barber pole with a blow torch because he "liked it".
Another was going to inlay a subway token from the early 20th century on the wrist of his fine Lancaster rifle because his grandmother was born the same year and it would remind him of her.
And the worst of the worst; you see an attractive lady from the back in a store, dressed to the nines and obviously with some fashion sense. You get closer, she stops and turns around and you can see she is covered up with death metal tattoos, neck and all. YUCK
Here is the thing, no matter how bad someone's work is a bunch of of guys will always chime in with "work of art " or some other congratulatory nonsense and then get mad at you if you tell the truth and point out what it clearly visible to anyone who knows good work.
I am of the generation that didn't get a trophy for just showing up, I suspect a lot of the guys who jump on me for telling the truth did or perhaps they just don't like honest people.
