Interesting comment from Tip!

[Roguedog]

Thanks for the info Pletch. In regard to Tip's comment, maybe he was talking about velocity? However, the context of the conversation was about how slow my gun was and how there seemed to be a delay in the ignition process. He then looked at my touch hole diameter and said it was too big. At any rate, it makes since to me that a larger touch hole should at the very least, improve my guns reliability as well as possibly speed up ignition.

Jeff

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Opinions vary widely about the advantages of different sizes of vents. One chunk gun shooter I know starts with a Chambers liner at .055 in and replaces it when it opens to 1/16". Many more think 1/16" is too small. As a rule we rely on our senses to tell if we are satisfied with our ignition.

in my Lancaster i drilled the Chambers vent to 1/16' thinking that I would drill larger if necessary. Later I told folks I was using a .067 vent. I had reason to check and found that I forgot to enlarge it. I was still using teh 1/16" vent and getting very quick ignition. Did it seem faster because I thought I redrilled it? I haven't timed my Lancaster-don't see the need.

Here is more food for thought. The flame front of the igniting pan travels as fast through a small vent as a large one. Any thoughts or speculation? Any data you're willing to share?
Regards,
Pletch

 

[tenngun]

Our preceptions can get a bit out of wack by experince. I've shot flinters for better then 30 years and I don't notice a lag unless i overfilled the pan or have a cloged touch hole. Had my new fusil out for its first shots on a public line. It was the first gun I've made without a liner.The touch hole is 5/64. Fired about 10 shots no trouble,I cant say I notice any lag between trigger pull and shot. So a man and his sons are threr shooting some suppositry guns and ofcourse white smoke and big booms get thier atention. I offer a shot if they would like to try it and only dad took the chance. I loaded a patched ball and pricked the hole while loading and was very careful charging the pan. I want every thing to work its best when letting a novice shoot. He sat at the bench and carefuly sighted the gun fired with out a hitch. He turned to his boys and said it was like shooting a cannon,you get this flash and a second later it goes off.

 

[AZbpBurner]

Opinions, whether of experts, or just plain practiced simple folks, are just that - statements of the facts as they see them. I spent a good portion of my engineering career in process development and improvement. What I implemented as improvements in production quality were often dissed by the 'we've never done it that way' crowd of established experts. More than once I've challenged the older, more experienced and "better" to show me better stats over what I've implemented - never got much more than some grumbling about "ain't got time now" to refute my findings.

When it comes down to it, do what works best for you. I've incrementally opened up touch holes with number bits, and have found reliability has improved, as has perceived ignition time.

Of course, I'm shooting a GPR, so don't hold much regard for any well-respected 'expert' who deigns to diss the rifle I'm so very fond of. It performs to my expectations, and IMO, on the same level as that of 'better' and pricier custom rifles.

Moral of the tale is to just do what works for YOU. Experts do what works for them, but they're not always universally, and unquestionably, and irreproachably correct.

 

[hawkeye2]

Do you use a clockwise or counterclockwise helical spiral? Which would you recommend for use in the northern hemisphere?

 

[M. De Land]

That is how I have been loading since I got my match flint pistol going. I made a black wire pick with a hemisphere end,load with the pick in the hole , pull and prime. It keeps the hole the same size shot to shot and being that it is round ended and soft wire it does not damage the liner flash hole.
I can't prove it but I think when you load with the pick clear into the hole and touching the offside of the barrel,load and pull it out , it leaves a cavity in the packed powder column for the flash to inter and ignites the charge from the inside. Mike D.

 

[nchawkeye]

In my experience the location of the touchhole is critical for fast ignition...I like mine high so the heel of the frizzen covers it and you won't get the fuse effect...I also like mine coned from the inside...As far as size, small enough that the FFF in the barrel doesn't leak out into the pan..... :grin:

 

[Wes/Tex]

In my experience the location of the touchhole is critical for fast ignition

I've found that to be true. The so called "sunset position" where the bottom of the touch hole opening is level with the pan top & centered along the pan center seems the best bet. Coning from the inside also helps, allowing the powder grains to show in the opening and more easily ignite from the incandescent flash of the priming powder. I've always found this method to provide the fastest & surest way to guarantee instant ignition.

 

[don hepler]

I could be wrong, but my experience with Tip, is, that it is an insult to question the way he builds a rifle. He put a certain size flash hole, and from his experience, that's the way it needs to be. I asked about removing the vent liner and replacing it with a screw in removable liner, that I could take out and clean, like the ones on my TC's and he about went "off" on me. He said listen to me, I've shot flintlocks, since I was a kid, and shot all over the world. I realized at that moment, that my suggestion was really an insult, and I agreed to leave the liner as it was.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

In 2009 I timed high, low and level vent positions. I timed 20 trials and averaged them. The results were as follows:

low vent average -----.038 sec
level vent average ---.036 sec
high vent average ----.037 sec

In my study there is no statistical difference. The article appears in March 2009 MuzzleBlasts and at this link: Pan vent Experiments

The phase of testing includes photos of the vent locations to show how high or low the positions were. They are located at: High low vents experiments
There is a video to demonstrate the methods.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Roguedog]

Yeah, I got the distinct impression that Tip had very strong beliefs on what was the "correct" way to do something. Given his track record, I don't doubt anything he says. But.....just because your rifle or shotgun did not come from Tip does not mean that they will not shoot well. Having said that, I did love the way his guns felt and I really would like to have one to add to my collection.

I have now reached the point where I have more guns than I really need. I am now in the process of aquiring guns merely for want. My wife does not always understand this but I guess she has decided that it is useless to try and dissuade me.

Jeff

 

[zimmerstutzen]

My first flintlock was a CVA kentucky kit gun. The instructions were to drill a touch hole with a 3/32nds drill. Loading any grade of black powder had a two second fuse effect, Another flinter I got in a swap, had a plain drilled touch hole and was like wise not coned. That touch hole was about the same size. Powder could leak into the pan with a bump or two. (dangerous in my opinion) It was faster but still had that fuse effect. Drilling the touch hole out and installing an inside coned liner made it much faster.

I certainly can't say the size of the hole made a difference, just that those two guns were indeed slow the way the way they were.

Don't know if it is the fastest, but I like to see grains of powder stuck at the surface of the touch hole. It would seem to me the easier and closer it is for the fire to reach the charge, the faster the gun. Moving the charge powder away from the pan with an allen wrench style, just seems to be a bit counterproductive. It might be a neglible difference, might not.

Maybe it is an old story with no basis, but it was early on explained to me that black powder burns up and away, radiating in every direction from the surface it is on, which is why only a tiny amount of powder in the flash pan burns up to the touch hole so fast.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Yeah, I got the distinct impression that Tip had very strong beliefs on what was the "correct" way to do something.

The "correct way" is best, until a better way comes along. :grin:

 

[Baxter]

Can't hate a guy for having an opinion, especially if "you" ask for it; do it your own way, don't tell him. Same philosophy I use in the house with the resident CEO. baxter

 

[Deadeye]

Has anyone contacted Tip to see what he really said or to see if what he said was taken out of context or wheather he said anything about touchholes at all. So& so said so&so is just hearsay. If someone wants to pose the question about wheather bigger is better, he can pose that question without involving anybodys name and bringing in experts to prove that person is wrong when we don't even know he even said it. Deadeye

 

[M. De Land]

Now there is a true statement! Strong opinions are necessary for any skill or craft to reach full potential but room always needs to be made for better ideas.
I am continually amazed at simple and yet profound ideas I pick up from folks that I should have thought of and didn't. Mike D.

 

[Roguedog]

Deadeye,
Tip and I were most certainly talking about touchhole size and how it affected ignition. It is possible that I misinterpreted Tip's point. Invoking Tip's name on this forum was in no way meant to disparage the man or his reputation. I simply ask questions for the sake of obtaining knowledge since I am a beginning flintlocker and my primary source of knowledge is this forum. If you want to call Tip and clarify, knock yourself out. As for me, I will continue to experiment with my rifle until I find out what my optimum set up should be. However, it is nice to shortent the learning curve when you can. Again, let it be clear that I have nothing but respect for Tip. Never intended for this to be a "he said-she said"!

Jeff

 

[don hepler]

I have talked with Tip, and I think he knows what he's talking about. A bunch of lab tests, means very little to me. The rifle can be canted and 3f powder might pour out of a larger hole, creating a fuse-like and actually slow the ignition time down. I'm with Tip, because I think he is talking from experience, or otherwise he'd put a larger hole to start with, and for what reason would he possibly gain from building a rifle that would be slower in firing.

My vote is for Tip.

 

[Billnpatti]

I need to jump back in here and say that my comment on Tips opinion on touch hole size and comparing it to work done by Larry Pletcher was not in any way a comment on Tip. We were discussing touch holes not the people who have opinions or data on the function of the various sizes of touch holes. It is all about touch holes not about people. Tip is a fine man and a fabulous artist as a gun maker and a man whose opinions are to be respected. Each artisan has an opinion about how a certain thing should be done. Larry Pletcher has done some great work with his high speed photography and has dispelled some long held myths. Not everyone agrees and that's okay. It appears that some folks have taken this to be an attack on Tip as a person. It most assuredly is not. Some have lashed out in Tip's defense. Let's not try to make this about the person for Heaven's sake. Let's keep it an open discussion about touch holes only. Open and free discussion leads to education.

 

[okawbow]

I recently finished a little 12 guage fowler. I did not use a vent liner, but drilled a 1/16" hole. The breech diameter is 1 1/8", so the wall thickness of the barrel at the vent, is about .190". I have only fired the gun about a dozen times, and it seems the gun goes off very quickly, but I have had a couple of flashes in the pan without the main charge going off. The bottom of the vent hole is even with the top edge of the pan, so in effect; the center of the hole is 1/32" above the "sunset" position.

I suspect I will need to drill the hole larger, slightly countersink or taper the hole, use more priming, keep a vent pick in the hole while loading, or all of the above.