Intro and a question about Ranson rifles

[Barz51]

Hello all, my name is Cory. I’m an avid bow and rifle hunter and I have been interested in black powder for a long time. A few years ago I purchased a Ranson 58 cal muzzle loader from a friend. He bought it used and had never fired it, and I have yet to use it as well. The gun came with some accessories like a box of .570 round balls, a bag of patches, and some lube. I’ve been looking for website or any information about the Ranson company but no luck so far. I have a general knowledge of black powder rifles but I’m uncertain of the specifics like how much and what type of powder is recommended, how can I tell what twist my barrel is etc... I’m a newbie when it comes to muzzle loaders and any help would be appreciated. Any websites or books you could recommend would also be appreciated.

Thanks,
Cory

In the interest of full disclosure I posted a similar message on the Goex Powder board yesterday. It seems they don’t get much traffic over there so I’m hoping someone here can help. Thanks again.

 

[faw3]

Well I dont know this one but I'll start you out with, the 58 you can start out with 60 grs 2f black powder, not knowing the rifle I cant say what your top load would be just go up 5 or 10 grs at a time till you can get them all/most in a 3 to 5" circle or box and work out your loads from that , someone will help you along here. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[bramble]

Welcome to MLF
You can put a cleaning Jag on the ramrod, patch it tightly, lube it, then make a mark on your ramrod. Either pushing it in or pulling it out (the direction that will not unscrew the jag), the patch should catch the lands & grooves enough to rotate the ramrod as the bullet would rotate. Count the rotations and from that you can figure the rate of twist.
bramble

 

[BrownBear]

Watch real close, because with slow twists you won't get anything like a full rotation. Heck, with a fast 1:32 you won't get a full rotation in barrels shorter than 32". If you get half a turn in a 32" barrel, your twist is on the order of 1:64, for example.

 

[AZ-Robert]

Welcome to the forum, Cory.

If the cleaning rods you use for you centerfire guns are long enough, and have the rotating handles, they are the best bet for checking your barrel's rate of twist. Use the largest slotted patch holder that will fit, along with a large patch. A 2" square might work, but make sure it fits tightly enough to force the rod to turn with the rifling. Use a magic marker to put a witness mark on the rod and watch it twist while you keep the handle from turning.

The conventional wisdom says that slow twist barrels (1 in 60" or so) are best suited for patched round balls, while faster twists (1 in 32" or so) are better for conical bullets. A twist of 1 in 48" is considered the compromise between the two.

As you know, balls and patches come in different sizes. If using a 0.570" ball, you probably want a patch of 0.015" - 0.018" thickness. If you go with a 0.575" ball, go down to 0.010" in patch thickness. Vary to suit your particular bore... you don't want the fit to be so tight that you risk snapping the ramrod and impaling the palm of your hand while trying to load.

A good web-source for balls, conicals, and patches is Track of the Wolf, but you can find other suppliers listed on the "Links" page of this forum.

Commercial lubes are fine, but I've had the best luck with stuff I make using a recipe concocted by our very own Stumpkiller.

Stumpkiller's Moose Milk

Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) __ 8 oz.
Castor Oil _______________ 3 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap ________ 1 oz.
Witch Hazel ______________ 4 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated) __ 16 oz.

Add in the above order and shake well to mix as added, and again before every use or transfer. Oil and water don't mix, dontcha know. Castor is alcohol soluable, but not in water. And yes, the witch hazel does seem to make a difference in how well it smears and coats the bore.

For powder, I prefer GOEX... real black powder rather than a substitute. The conventional wisdom says use 2F for calibers above 50, and 3F for calibers below that. Opinions vary, of course... some folks use 2F in everything, some use 3F in everything. I use 3F in my .54 cal.

The gun's maker is the best source for a max powder charge, in the expectation that he has done some sort of proofing. In the absence of that, you might turn to Lyman's BP Handook (available from Lyman's web site or[url] Amazon.com[/url]). My copy shows GOEX 2F charges for that caliber of patched round ball as low as 50 grains and as high as 190 grains. I usually start with a powder charge of grains equal to 1.5 times the caliber and work up or down from there. In the case of a .58 cal, I would start with 90 grains of 2F or 3F and move up by 5 grain increments until I found the best balance of power and accuracy. The handbook gives a MV of 1149 fps from a load of 90 grains of GOEX 2F. Folks that have been shooting .58s might have some ideas about how much higher than that to go to get a good hunting load.

As for references, you might take a look at Lyman's BP Handbook, and Bob Spencer's web-based BP Notebook has lots of useful information.

 

[RedFeather]

Just saw a post on this right here in the forum. [url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/200112/tp/2/[/url] See Windwalker's response with picture.

See if this looks like your's, although they are .50/.54.

 

[Barz51]

Thanks for help guys.

A few more questions:
How do I measure the grains of black powder? The flask below, the Zouave Flask, came with rifle, the description says it "comes with a 60 gr. spout for .58 caliber rifles" Does this mean the upper part holds 60 grains of powder.

Thanks again for help I'll try to post some pictures of the rifle tonight when I get home. Thanks again.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The answer is only " Maybe ". It depends on the powder you are pouring. Black Powder? Goex FFg? or FFFg? SWISS? WANO? Pyrodex? Triple 7? Pinnacle? How fat is your thumb?

For safety reasons, NEVER pour a charge into your barrel from a main powder source, and that has to include using a tube like this attached to a powder flask. The gates on those flasks are notorious for developing a film of Black Powder dust on both the inside and outside. The presense of the powder keeps the gate from acting as a fire barrier, as it physically springs the gate to allow access to the powder in the flask, and also serves a fast burning medium to extend fire from an outside source to the powder in the flask. That flask you are holding is like a hand grenade.

Always pour your powder into a separage powder measure, which you have checked to hold and throw the amount of the KIND of powder you are using in your gun? Then, and ONLY THEN, pour the powder from the separate measure into the gun barrel. If there is a spark left in the chamber, that sets off the powder when you pour it in, only a small amount of powder will ignite, instead of going into the poured flask, upended while you pour the powder into the barrel, and set off the flask! In your face!

There should be some number on that tube that tells you what weight of powder, by volume, it is intended to throw. If not, the only way to find out is to put powder in the tube, and then measure it on a scale. You can buy replacement tubes from Dixie Gunworks( links, here) in different volumes that will fit that flask.

I use my flask now only to store cream of wheat, or corn meal, to use as a filler in my rifle. I suggest you consider using it for the same purpose, and don't tempt yourself to violate serious safety rules by putting any kind of powder in it.

 

[windwalker_au]

Cory ranson co was an italian co i was told they were taken over by investarms some sort of merger. investarms are the mob that make the lyman guns. it was ranson that made the earley lyman guns.i have a rason .50cal that is the old lyman plains rifle. all the locks and triggers are the same they are a good gun vey well made,you will find your .58 has a 1 in 48 twist and will shoot mini's and maxi's just as well as round ball. heres a pic of my .50 cal.
bernie. :grin:

 

[AZ-Robert]

How do I measure the grains of black powder?

Use a measure. The kind I like looks like this one.

You'll very quickly come to appreciate the little built in funnel, as well as the ability to use one device for different loads... at least until you figure out the one load you want to use all or most of the time.

And once you get your hunting load sorted out, you might want to try a "speed loader", if they are legal for ML hunting in your state. It looks like this.

 

[grant]

Get Sam Fadala's "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook". It's a great read and very informative.

 

[renovato]

Hi Cory and welcome aboard! You can find adjustable powder measures at your local gun store, sporting goods store or mail order online. They're a common and inexpensive item. Good luck and let us know how your rifle shoots!

 

[Barz51]

Again thanks for the help everyone you guys are extremely helpful.

Windwalker your rifle is much nicer than mine. Mine appears to be of a, shall I say, more economical design. I'll post a picture below.

Robert thanks for the help. I tried the method you described to check twist and got just under 1/2 a twist. I measured a 32" barrel and that would equal around a 1 in 60". Good for the PRB that I plan on using.

Also thanks for safety warning with the flasks.

One more question (for today at least) Looking at patches on Track of the Wolf there are several types available. Do you guys suggest dry, oiled, or wonder lubed? I like the look of the Pillow Ticking but that is strictly for aesthetics.


Here is my $75 purchase:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I redcommend the pre-lubed patches with wonder lube. they work pretty well with all guns. When you get used to shooting the gun, you can work on buying your own cloth, and lubing them your self. there are several good recipes for lube listed here.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

That's a Zouave rifle--maybe a Zoli made gun. You did well getting it for $75.00. It can handle ball or Minie loads but you will have to try different loads to get it shooting as it should. I used to use 50 to 80 grains of ffg in mine, depending on what I was shooting at. In my carbine version I use a 560 grain Minie over 50 grains of ffg for target work at 100 yards and just recently used 90 grains in working up a hunting load. Wish I'd held onto my old Zouave. It would be 45+ years old now.

 

[Barz51]

Thanks for the info.

I believe you are right, I looked up Zouave rifles and the pictures I found match my gun. However on the barrel it says "RANSON ITALIA spa made in Italy" Also it does have a bayonet mount.

I can't find any info on Ranson guns. Anybody got a lead?

 

[faw3]

Well I said someone would help you along, Ive seen the name on here before the last 2 yrs, but this is on AOL and cant search back ,asked a friend to look back and it only runs back 6 months. At least you know you can start out with the 60grs of BP or fake powder, ball or minie/maxie. Fred :hatsoff: ( belive the Lyman,Investarms is right, at one time say 20 yrs ago they mustof had 20 or 30 smaller gun makeing outfits -Investarms and a few others buying them up for some parts they made well) :hmm:

 

[AZ-Robert]

Looks like you got a good deal on that rifle, Barz51.

Looking at patches on Track of the Wolf there are several types available. Do you guys suggest dry, oiled, or wonder lubed? I like the look of the Pillow Ticking but that is strictly for aesthetics.

Oh, you are just chisling away at the tip of the iceberg! Patches, like which brand and how much powder to use, is one of those rabbit holes some of us dive into for the ultimate load development. Different weaves are looser or tighter, burn out quicker, are less likely to be cut by the rifling, hold the lube better, and on and on and on... it is practically a science in itself! So, some will tell you, that pillow ticking is more than looks; it is also about the quality of the weave. Some of us go so far as to take micrometers to the fabric store and cut and pre-lube our own patches!

As for dry vs pre-lube; I second the recommendation to go with pre-lube. Even with pre-lubed patches, I throw a little Moose Milk on there before loading them. It makes all the difference in preventing the build up of fouiling during a long range session, making the last shot as easy to load as the first. The Moose Milk is also good for swabbing between every fifth shot or so if you find it gets hard to load.

When hunting, you might want to use just the pre-lube patches without the Moose Milk to avoid the dampening of the powder.

 

[AZ-Robert]

Hey Cory,

Have you figured out what kind / size of caps you need for that Zouve? They are not easy to find via mail / internet order, so you may have to start shopping around for a steady supplier. Our local gun store carries a few choices, as does WalMart.

 

[Barz51]

Actually, until I started looking around here I did not realize there were different types of caps. :redface: What type should I be looking for? Anyplace I can order them? I already have one order in to Track of the Wolf and am planning another; do they carry what I need? Would I be better buying a new nipple and caps that fit it?

Once again, everyone here has been a great help. Thanks again.